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The so called "Serbo-Croatian" is an artificial construct. It is not a language, but two separate languages. The two languages were artificially brought together during the ex-Yugoslavia period, by actions of manic propaganda. Forceful "brotherhood & unity" caused by commies, required for languages to be very close to each other, in order to melt the two most populous nations(Serbs and Croats) in one common identity, the Yugoslav one. That way, the leadership could easily control homogeneous population. There would be no differences and no interest clashes.
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You see, the Croats had written their first dictionary in the 17th century, while the Serbs gained theirs in the 19th century. And their dictionary was largely based on stokavian dialect, and was vastly influenced by grammar rules, observed in the earlier Croatian dictionaries. To know something about this matter, please read about the Croatian language. ![]()
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Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Friedrich Nietzsche ![]() Last edited by Monolith; Friday, November 16th, 2007 at 18:41. |
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Langue croate ou serbo-croate? - Ambassade de Croatie en France Anyway, in France, this language is also always described as Serbo-Croatian. Quote:
But concerning Serbian, what are the differences with Croatian, linguistically speaking ? I know it's a difficult subject (and especially since we are in a nationalist forum), and I would not speak for Croatian, since I am not a specialist at all in that matter, but concerning mutually intelligible in general (and Serbian and Montenegrin as it seems), can't we consider them more like two different version of a same language, if speaking about linguistics ? Aren't those distinctions more historical than strictly linguistical ? It may be also be a policital act. I don't want by that to "disqualify" the very own nature of those different people and ethnic groups (and it is not my aim). Morever, language is not all, and culture, origine, religion and history often matters more when it is about to define a people, in fact (ex: Irish people). But I say this because in France, for exemple, inside the three varieties of Romance languages formerly spoken in what is now France [i.e French (or "Oil [means "Yes"] language"), Franco-Provençal (or Arpitan) and Occitan], there were many dialectical differences (between Gascon, Auvergnat, Provençal, Poitevin, Gallo, Lorrain...). A question I may ask is : Would those different dialects have been considered as different languages if the land where they are spoken were politically separated ? It is just a sort of reflexion I have concerning the real nature of linguistical groups : it is somehow subjective, in fact (but which I consider to be normal - because human - anyway). Last edited by Cirrus; Friday, November 16th, 2007 at 19:55. |
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In addition, Croatian language has three macrodialects, while Serbian has one.(or two if you count Torlakian,southern dialect). Let's say that Croatian and Serbian are like Norwegian and Swedish, with the difference that Cro&Ser have been artificially brought together. Anyway, it's really complex to explain all this, but this wikipedia article pretty much summs it up. Quote:
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But we, the Croats, especially cherish our language because it was oppressed, and even forbidden too many times during the history. It is also one of the pillars of our identity. It is who we are. Quote:
Here in Croatia we have three different dialects, but their speakers are aware that they belong to the same language. During the history, when our poetry was written, writers who belonged to different dialects were aware that they are writing on the same language, and that they belong to the same people.
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Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
Friedrich Nietzsche ![]() |
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Linguistically speaking, there is a great difference between a language and a literary language. Literary languages are always constructs.
Bear with me until the end of this: Serbo-Croatian (or whatever you may call it, Montenegrin historical figures simply called it Serbian) is one language. It has three main dialects: čakavian, kajkavian and štokavian (ča, kaj, što = "what"). Štokavian is by far the most widespread and is further divided into ekavian and ijekavian (protoslavic *ě > ekavian e, ijekavian ije - lepi/lijepi, ...). Now, while čakavian and kajkavian are only spoken in Croatia, štokavian is spoken in Croatia as well as Bosnia, Montenegro and Serbia. Štokavian is thus the basis for all literary languages, and while Croatians chose an ijekavian base (Bosnians as well, as far as I know), Serbs have a ekavian one. Montenegrins speak ijekavian. Thus, Montenegrin may be regarded as both one and the same language with Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian and as a separate language. It is the same because it is merely a dialect of "Serbo-Croatian", and it is separate because it may be defined as separate literary language. I understand that the political situation is tense. What I have described is the viewpoint of linguistics. Whatever phonologic, morphologic, syntactic and lexical differences might have existed between dialects of "Serbo-Croatian" before the 20th century, I assure you, linguistically speaking, they were negligable compared to the differences between dialects of Slovenian that exist to this day. Many of them are not even mutually intelligible. But if one of the Slovenian regions would separate and decide to establish their literary language as separate from Slovenian on the basis of their local dialect, it is their right. After all, a language is a dialect with an army and navy. ![]() ![]() |
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That was the aim of my reflexion in my previous post. |
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Besides, Croatian has an uninterrupted history of written monuments and documents, grammars, dictionaries, literature (in different scripts), from 11th century on. In the light of that, I just don't care about what degree of similarity there is(n't) between itself and the Serbian. They are mutually (mostly) intelligible, yes. Note: here I am speaking solely about Croatian-Serbian controversy and not about this Serbian-Montenegrin issue, which is far trickier. Quote:
It was a blunder. |
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The fact is that the Croatian language has three dialects (štokavian, kajkavian and čakavian), while the Serbian language has only one linguistic variety (in fact, two, if you count the sub-variety of Torlakian as a separate dialect). This only one linguistic variety of Serbian is very close to the Croatian štokavian dialect. In 19th century štokavian was chosen by some Croatian writers to be the literary language of Croats. The motivation behind that was to make Serbian and Croatian literary (and official) languages as similar as possible, so as to foment the Freemasonically inspired "Yugoslav idea". Quote:
There is also socio-linguistics. Quote:
But inside Croatia, there were huge dialectical differences, between štokavian and kajkavian, štokavian and čakavian, between some sub-varieties of both kajkavian and čakavian. Ever listened to a native dialect of the island of Vis? To native dialects of some villages of Istria? Much this richness got lost, unfortunately... Quote:
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