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| Law Dura Lex sed Lex? The organisation of the legal system in Europe and its implications on people and society. |
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Friday, December 2nd, 2005
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The Endless Death Penalty Debate
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
This is the one big disagreement I have with most Europeans. In the USA we have truly violent people some of whom will kill members of other races as quickly as they would squash an ant. We just executed such a person here last week, Stanly "Tookie" Williams. He murdered a white man while robbing a liquor store. He shot him in the back with a shotgun, twice, as he was laying, face down, on the floor. He also murdered three members of an Asian family for no reason (other than race). Tookie founded the Crips street gang which is responsible for thousands of deaths and an active cocaine trade as well as other street crime. I can't think of a more worthless human being. He should have been aborted before causing us these problems but since he did, the least we can do is to cut out this cancer as soon as possible. He even caused problems by attacking other death row inmates and prison guards. Oh yes, the final insult--he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize---definately should be killed.
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
I favour the death penalty for abortionists
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
Up the long ladder & down the short rope
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
Question to the holy inquisition present here. Is Death sentence fair regarding Christianism? I don't think so.
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Death begets death. Isn't that what you say? For my part, Tookie was nothing but a living threat.
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"Their trumpets again are of a peculiar barbarian kind; they blow into them and produce a harsh sound which suits the tumult of war."
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
It's easy to take a scriptural quote out of context. Jesus's companion was raising his sword in a kind of melee, not exercising state power over criminals
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The traditions of the Irish people are the oldest of any race in Europe north and west of the Alps, and they themselves are the longest settled on their own soil - Edmund Curtis (A History of Ireland: From Earliest Times to 1922) The Irish are one of the most ancient nations that I know of at this end of the world, and are from as mighty a race as the world ever brought forth. For it is certain that Ireland hath had the use of letters very anciently and long before England; that they had letters anciently is nothing doubtful, for the Saxons of England are said to have their letters and learning, and learned men, from the Irish. - Edmund Spenser (writer, and British Government Official in Ireland, AD 1596). The renaissance began in Ireland seven hundred years before it was known in Italy. And Armagh, the ecclesiastical capital of Ireland, was at one time the metropolis of civilisation. - Arsene Darmesteter, Professor of Old French and Literature Ireland can indeed lay claim to a great past; she can not only boast of having been the birthplace and abode of high culture in the fifth and sixth centuries . . . but also of having made strenous efforts in the seventh and up to the tenth century to spread her learning among the German and Romance peoples, thus forming the actual fountain of our present continental civilisation. - Heinrich Zimmer, Professor of Celtic and Sanskrit, Member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
Dr. Solar, we are too having truly violent crimes here. Crime trends have changed heavily with immigration.
Some months ago I was in a clinic and met a woman who was nearly 70 years of age, and who had been "robbed" a few weeks earlier. As I spoke to her, we remembered when house robberies were different.. not that long time ago. The burglars would wait for the house to be empty of people to enter. Today the trend is exactly the opposite. This woman was sleeping when some men climbed through some pipes and entered the house. It was Summer and the lady had the window of her bedroom open. They sprayed her with some chemical to put her deeper asleep. Then, they saw a safe and went on to wake her up to tell them the combination. To wake her up, as she was fast asleep by the effects of the chemical, they beat her up repeatedly on her head and rest of the body with a wooden stick. She begged them, implored them not to beat her up more, assuring them that she would tell them and give them whatever they wanted, just not to kill her. By now her face was a bleeding mass and the woman was convinced that they would kill her. She couldn't give them the combination straight away, as she was terrorised and unable to think straight. They kept beating her up. Just a few months earlier, near to where I live, some men entered a house where there were a young couple and their 12 year old son. Somehow they knew that they had cash in the house. Don't ask.. the man was a lawyer... I'd rather not speculate. Apparently it was 12,000 euros, and first the beat up the man, and then the wife and the 12 year old son. I saw the child a few weeks later. His face was swollen and he was wearing a device to keep his neck straight. Things are changing rapidly..
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.'  We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
Having said this, I am still against the death penalty for two reasons of a very different nature.
Reason number one is that people working in the legal system are far from infalible. Actually, they are often most useless. How many cases have there been in the U.S. where a man has been condemned to the death row, and after executed he has been proved non guilty? Reason number two is most important too. Who of you believes that taking the life of a man who has killed a person, maybe tortured or raped before killing, and who has left the family of that person deprived of his/her beloved one, is a punishment? How long does it take for a lethal injection to take out the life of a criminal? Less than the suffering that his victim went through, and nothing compared to the sorrow of those who loved him (the victim). I believe that the punishment must be life imprisonment under very strict conditions. The death penalty would be like releasing him of the punishment.
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'Dardanidae duri, quae uos a stirpe parentum prima tulit tellus, eadem uos ubere laeto
accipiet reduces. Antiquam exquirite matrem: hic domus Aeneae cunctis dominabitur oris, et nati natorum, et qui nascentur ab illis.' We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. –Plato–
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
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"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." - Exodus 21:12 "And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." - Exodus 21:15 "So you shall not pollute the land where you are; for blood defiles the land, and no atonement can be made for the land, for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it." - Numbers 35:33 So now, you would say, "But that was the Old Testament, things changed when Jesus came...He said turn the other cheek...He also said do not judge." Well, He did say those things, but if you take them out of context the meaning can be completely changed. And that is what happened. Jesus Himself told us that He did not come to abolish or change the Law, but to fulfill the Law. Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commadments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-19 Just to state a few examples.
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Monday, December 19th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
I don't support it for the same reason I don't support murder - someone's right to live/die should only be decided by that someone. If things don't exactly work this way within society, that's another story.
I also don't support it having in matter the corruption of justice - the fact that some trials may prove to be fraudulous or arranged in the interest of certain individuals, while others commit atrocious crimes en masse and they get away with it. Anyway, a person who turns out to be innocent can be acquitted, but someone who was wrongly sentenced to death cannot be brought back to life. Another reason I don't support it is the fact that the crimes for which it is/would be received as punishment aren't/wouldn't be the same everywhere. It's not just murder... I mean, in some countries, drug usage can result in death penalty. For serious and coldbloded crimes, I'd rather agree with imprisonment for life in poor conditions and deprivation from life pleasures, isolation from society, mandatory labour, etc.
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Tuesday, December 20th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
This is not a simple issue as you guys have made clear. In fact, if I was living in Europe, I would be much more inclined to go easy on people convicted on some crimes there, such as thought crime. I know you have murders, rapes, etc. and nobody likes seeing their neighbors robbed.
I just don't think I can get my point across because it may be necessary to live this and feel the fear first hand. This does something to a person. All the prejudices we have about black crimminals are probably true. Young black men don't fit into a technological society in most cases and are about 1000 times more likely to resort to crime on some level if they are not athletes or rap stars. Even then I say that every prominant black either starts or ends his career involving cocaine. Young black men are essentially interchangable, redundant, and less than worthless. This is just because they eat up our treasue in government programs to help them and prisons when they go wrong. Most black men have been to jail if not prison. More Black men have been in prison in California than in college and college is almost free in California. Now we have an even bigger problem. Mexican gang bangers, young kids who could make it in America choose not to do so but to live a life of crime in a low-life street gang. This is fashionable among young Mexicans. In fact, going to prison is considered a right of passage. Think about this a second. They want to go to prison so they can brag about it to their "homies". Crime and punishment are not necessarily to be avoided but add macho to those involved. Of course, government aids all this by imprisoning these young males. From this vast sea of Mexican gang-bangers in prison, the Mexican Mafia recruits the baddest, most violent, into their organized drug trade and accompaying murder. We are now involved in a training camp for the Mexican Mafia!!! By the time we can get one of these Mexican Mafia dudes behind bars, all we can hope for is the death penality. These guys commit murder just to attract enough attention to get noticed for possible membership in the Mexican Mafia. Once they join, murder is exactly what they are supposed to do. If we are ever so lucky as to nail these guys with one capital crime, we are so fortunate that we are all willing to wait the twenty-plus years it takes until they exhaust several manditory appeals. If you guys had this sort of crime in Europe, you would bring back the Gestapo yesterday. We tried to do this and got a police-state instead which does the easy thing and goes after people parking their cars in the wrong place. Now we have the Patriot Act. This is all a continuation of the plausable reality of a culture of fear. If you don't want to live in fear or threat you have to take action. Your immigration crime is not going to get better. They don't value your life or the life of your neighbors nearly as much as you think they do or you do. Last edited by Dr. Solar Wolff; Tuesday, December 20th, 2005 at 06:07.
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Tuesday, December 20th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
A lot of our problems actually come from America. They just arrive 10 to 15 years later. Your gangs and rap music make emulators over here. Our criminals are not angels, but it's true they need practice, just give them some time; we've had men killed with bricks, women set on fire, collective rapes are common in France... I could tell you plenty of cases.
Two years and half ago, a Southern French was cut in half with a knife (the sort you use in your kitchen) by a Black African immigrant. Lately, a young French girl (native French, not a "French" by paper) was lured in a trap by alien females, kidnapped by "young" males (read Arabo-Muslims), raped all night long, tortured, beaten, forced to lick one of her raper's urine (!), kept in confinement, finally she escaped her torturers by miracle. They'd planned to make her a prostitute for their "cité"!... Friday a "young" (a negro) stabbed his teacher in his class room. Our great brains propose to put policemen in school and metal detectors at school entries. Welcome in the USA... And what about our 4 riot victims? No mercy. Death penality for criminals of this nature.
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"Their trumpets again are of a peculiar barbarian kind; they blow into them and produce a harsh sound which suits the tumult of war."
Last edited by Carnyx; Tuesday, December 20th, 2005 at 16:37.
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Tuesday, December 20th, 2005
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Re: The Endless Death Penalty Debate
I'm not a christian, my point of view is not influenced by christianism and I think the judicial powers should never be subject to theocratic influences.
Having said that, I find no other solution for rapists, mass murderers, etc. I know one can put them in jail for their entire life but that would just mean you would feed and provide for a man/woman who has done nothing to fee or provide for you, in fact he is a cancer to the civil body.
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