Poles Try to Counter Negative Image

[Nerthus]

Poles Try to Counter Negative Image
Luring the West with sexy plumbers

During the French EU constitution vote, much was made of the Polish "plumber” stealing jobs. Poles responded with humor, but say that attitudes haven't changed much towards the new eastern EU members.

The French “non” campaign was specific: a yes vote means the “Polish plumber” will take French jobs. But these days, annoyed with the negative image of Eastern Europeans portrayed by richer western EU countries, Poles have come up with a creative way to fight back.

Hence the hunky Polish plumber, beckoning visitors to Poland.

Full story

[Joermungand]

Wasnt it in the news that 1000s of poles try to get work in germany with faked papers they buyed for about 100€ ? Thats a problem they have to fight when they want to reach a better position on our image ladders...

[Nerthus]

Yes, I've also heard on the news about lots of Poles illegally working in Germany. However they are not the only ones... The payment is more advantageous for them than for Germans because the prices in Eastern Europe are not the same.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

Many Poles grumble that it is always Poland singled out for negative stereotyping. Why does no one mention the Spanish construction worker or Irish barman abroad, they wonder.

That's not true. There are also many stereotypes and "clichés" about the Spaniards and especially the Portuguese.

It is funny because these negative stereotypes about the Poles (and generally Eastern Europeans) are also very usual among the French who have origins from these countries (3rd or 4th generation). For instance before the referendum (for EU constitution) I was talking with someone about EU enlargement. He was strongly opposed to it and used common clichés such as "they are going to steal our jobs, they are all lazy and drunkards, the only thing they are able to produce is vodka ..." and later I saw that his name was "Adamski" or something similar.

There was also a strong resentment against Poland during Iraqi crisis because of unconditional Polish support to the USA (and also because of that F-16 thing). It was seen as a betrayal (and it was) since France has helped Poland many times during its history.

But the Poles can be proud. It is partially thanks to them that French people said "No".

[Gil]

Whenever another ethnic group resides in a nation which is foreign to it there are bound to be some animosity, be it light or strong. The poles are no exception and making themselves the victims is just playing the "oh, I'm so weak!" part.

[Carnyx]

“On one hand, they treat us as if we don’t exist. On the other hand, we are seen as a threat, taking their land, autos, jobs.”

I've nothing against Poles, the main problem is the EU not the Poles.

Sabine Woelker, an expert on Polish-German relations for the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin says that negative stereotypes of Poland and its eastern neighbors still exist but are changing slowly.

Oh yes, and no stereotype exist on westerners in Poland...

“Poles are still seen as coming into Germany illegally, working as construction workers or cleaners,” she said. “The idea still exists that Poles are lazy, that one has to watch their valuables around them, and people still joke about how risky it is to take one’s car to Poland. But this is changing as German employers see that Poles are very flexible, work well and are worth their wages.”

Sure this is changing they're now employed, whereas Germans are out of job. Translation : flexible = work even the week-end, work well = and cost less than german workers.

“I got tired of being looked down on, being viewed with suspicion” said one Pole, a government auditor from Warsaw who spent time in a German government ministry during an exchange program. “We are not all housecleaners or plumbers or car thieves.”

That is specific to Germany, I never heard about Poles to be car thieves or whatelse. Ho drunkards, yes but nothing else.

These days, more than a year after joining the club, Poles – who are usually the most negatively stereotyped by western countries - are fighting clichés with the ad campaign and defying them with success.

As Manji said, clichés are not specific to Poland and Poles and they really play the complaining card.

“The French and German politicians played on people’s fears of losing their jobs,” the official said. “And if the economic situation of France and Germany continue to stagnate, then politicians will continue to do so, no matter what the reality is.”

And they're right to fear. Last week I saw a Kosovar truck driver (ok nothing to do with Poles, but that guy wasn't french either). What the hell! Why not not employing a french?! Ho yeah, it's because french are too lazy to do that job. I don't buy it.

“Or maybe it is because Polish plumbers are more attractive,” Gubois joked.

Or maybe it is because they accept to work for "nothing" and 12/24.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

It was seen as a betrayal (and it was) since France has helped Poland many times during its history.

Really? Give some examples please.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by bocian

Really? Give some examples please.

Don't you know your own history ?

1/1660-1667 : Mazarin (French statesman) used his influence on Sweden to convince her to sign a peace treaty with Poland (after 10 years of plundering and destructions in Poland).

2/1733 : The Count Robert de Plélo (King of France's ambassador) led 2,000 volunteers and delivered Danzig (with former Polish king Stanislas Leszczynski, who was besieged by Russian army). The French diplomat was killed during the battle.

3/1807-1815 : By the Treaty of Tilsit (1807), Napoleon I (re)created a Polish state, the grand duchy of Warsaw (only 8 years of Polish independence between 1795 and 1918). This state was even geographically increased after Wagram in 1809.

4,5,6/1830, 1848, 1863 : Many French volunteers took part in Polish insurrections, and Polish rebels took refuge in Paris each time after these insurrections. Paris became the center of Polish nationalist activities, almost a second Polish capital. France also became the "second Fatherland" of famous Poles such as Frédéric Chopin or Adam Mickiewicz.

7/1918 : A Polish army of 50,000 soldiers (with General Haller as leader) was formed, trained and equipped by France. The French effort was vital in improving the organisation of the newly formed Polish army.

8/1920 : The French military mission to Poland, with Weygand and de Gaulle, gave Poland an important and decisive logistic aid that made possible the Polish victory in the Battle of Warsaw.

9/1939-1940 : France declared war on Germany on Sept. 3 to defend Poland. (Franco-Polish political and military alliance since February 21, 1921 and Franco-Polish Treaty in 1925)
After Polish capitulation Polish government took refuge in Paris then in Angers.

During Communist rule, France was also one of the most important supporters of Solidarnosc and Lech Walesa (France was the first country visited by Walesa in 1988, Mitterand was the first foreign statesman to visit Poland the same year). (10 ?)

However I don't say that it has not been reciprocal (Polish troops in Napoleonic armies or during WWII).

[Zyklop]

Luring the West with sexy plumbers

Hey bocian, I always thought you were a carpenter

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Luring the West with sexy plumbers

Hey bocian, I always thought you were a carpenter

[SouthernBoy]

Originally Posted by bocian

I see someone is going to be busy laying pipe.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

1/1660-1667 : Mazarin (French statesman) used his influence on Sweden to convince her to sign a peace treaty with Poland (after 10 years of plundering and destructions in Poland).

Yeah, the French who also happened to be allied with Sweden and stood by and watched the barbarous Swedes burn Poland to the ground...while Poles were out constantly fighting Ottomans, Cossasks, Russians and Tatars...

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

2/1733 : The Count Robert de Plélo (King of France's ambassador) led 2,000 volunteers and delivered Danzig (with former Polish king Stanislas Leszczynski, who was besieged by Russian army). The French diplomat was killed during the battle.

Gdansk was taken, I guess 2000 'volunteers wasn't nearly enough.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

3/1807-1815 : By the Treaty of Tilsit (1807), Napoleon I (re)created a Polish state, the grand duchy of Warsaw (only 8 years of Polish independence between 1795 and 1918). This state was even geographically increased after Wagram in 1809.

One of the biggest shams ever. Polish troops loyally fought and died for Bonaparte from Italy to Haiti to Russia and everywhere in between fpr some hope of regaining their homeland. Bonaparte on the other hand could have done a lot in 1812 when he controlled most of historic Poland yet never made his plans clear...Poniatowski, his most loyal leuitenant, made quite clear the sentiments of the weary, hopeless, betrayed Polish nation when he plunged himself in the Elster.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

4,5,6/1830, 1848, 1863 : Many French volunteers took part in Polish insurrections, and Polish rebels took refuge in Paris each time after these insurrections. Paris became the center of Polish nationalist activities, almost a second Polish capital. France also became the "second Fatherland" of famous Poles such as Frédéric Chopin or Adam Mickiewicz.

How many? I bet just as many as Polish 'volunteers' served France over the years...

Yeah I agree, true Polish 'patriots' sought refuge in France...

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

7/1918 : A Polish army of 50,000 soldiers (with General Haller as leader) was formed, trained and equipped by France. The French effort was vital in improving the organisation of the newly formed Polish army.

A Polish army formed of Polish war veterans--from the French army.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

8/1920 : The French military mission to Poland, with Weygand and de Gaulle, gave Poland an important and decisive logistic aid that made possible the Polish victory in the Battle of Warsaw.

De Gaulle wasn't the advisor, he was the advised. Thanks to the war he was able to formulate his ideas on modern warfare.

'Over the corpse of white Poland lies the road to world-wide conflagration'

It truly took a miracle for the Poles, alone, to defeat the Red army.

With such a danger in Europe, France didn't contribute anything more than a few advisors. You should be ashamed.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

9/1939-1940 : France declared war on Germany on Sept. 3 to defend Poland. (Franco-Polish political and military alliance since February 21, 1921 and Franco-Polish Treaty in 1925)
After Polish capitulation Polish government took refuge in Paris then in Angers.

Yeah...good thing the French attacked the Germans 2 weeks after the outbreak of war. Poland fought, as planned a defensive war, yet neither the French or British attacked from the west like they were supposed to. I'm sure you've heard about the 'phony war'

The French, they make the best of allies.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

During Communist rule, France was also one of the most important supporters of Solidarnosc and Lech Walesa (France was the first country visited by Walesa in 1988, Mitterand was the first foreign statesman to visit Poland the same year). (10 ?)

Bravo.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

However I don't say that it has not been reciprocal (Polish troops in Napoleonic armies or during WWII).

Whatever.


Thanks for all the help France.

[Theobald]

Funny, I had never met a Pole trying to deny that France has always been Poland's best ally.

Originally Posted by bocian

Yeah, the French who also happened to be allied with Sweden and stood by and watched the barbarous Swedes burn Poland to the ground...while Poles were out constantly fighting Ottomans, Cossasks, Russians and Tatars...

Brave Poles. That doesn't change the fact that without France the Swedes would have burned Poland several more years.

Originally Posted by bocian

Gdansk was taken, I guess 2000 'volunteers wasn't nearly enough.

Against 70,000 Russians, hardly. France even gave your deposed King a new Kingdom (Lorraine, that became French after his death).

Originally Posted by bocian

One of the biggest shams ever. Polish troops loyally fought and died for Bonaparte from Italy to Haiti to Russia and everywhere in between fpr some hope of regaining their homeland. Bonaparte on the other hand could have done a lot in 1812 when he controlled most of historic Poland yet never made his plans clear...

Really ? Let's see.

Poland before Napoleon :



(That inspired Jarry's famous word : "The scene takes place in Poland, that is to say : nowhere")

Poland under Napoleon :



Poland after Napoleon :




You're ungrateful Sir. Napoleon gave you an independent Kingdom. He could have satisfied Prussia and Russia. But he didn't do it. And it was a big error since it made Prussia (and Russia) rather angry. Just like 130 years later when France declared war on Germany (and therefore was invaded) just to defend your "country".

Originally Posted by bocian

How many? I bet just as many as Polish 'volunteers' served France over the years...

I don't know how many, but there were quite a lot of idealistic and romantic young French ready to die for "poor and oppressed Poles" and freedom, ... Polish insurrection in 1830 started when the Poles saw the tricolore flag over French ambassade in Warsaw but I think you forgot this as well.

Originally Posted by bocian

A Polish army formed of Polish war veterans--from the French army.

So ? They were still equipped, trained and formed by French officers.

Originally Posted by bocian

De Gaulle wasn't the advisor, he was the advised. Thanks to the war he was able to formulate his ideas on modern warfare.

'Over the corpse of white Poland lies the road to world-wide conflagration'

With such a danger in Europe, France didn't contribute anything more than a few advisors. You should be ashamed.

It seems that these "few advisors" still had a great role in Polak army :

The French Military Mission to Poland was an effort by France to aid the nascent Second Polish Republic after it achieved its independence in November 1918, at the end of the First World War. The aim was to provide aid during the Polish-Soviet War and to create a strong Polish military. It was an advisory body consisting of about 400 French officers attached to staffs of Polish units at various levels. Although the French mission was small numerically, its effect was very important in improving the organisation and logistics of the Polish army.

It was commanded by French General Paul Prosper Henrys, previously the commander of French forces in the Balkans. The French mission commanded considerable respect and influence through the activities of its 400 officer-instructors. These men, distributed among the cadres of the Polish Staff, were entrusted with the task of training the officer corps in the art of military science and in the use of French army manuals. The French effort was vital in improving the organisation of the newly formed Polish army, which up till 1919 used various manuals, organisation structures and equipment, mostly from the former partitioner armies.

Originally Posted by bocian

It truly took a miracle for the Poles, alone, to defeat the Red army.

Brave Poles.

Originally Posted by bocian

Yeah...good thing the French attacked the Germans 2 weeks after the outbreak of war. Poland fought, as planned a defensive war, yet neither the French or British attacked from the west like they were supposed to. I'm sure you've heard about the 'phony war'

The French, they make the best of allies.

Hundreds of thousand Frenchmen died just because Poland didn't want to give Germany what was rightfully hers (i.e. Danzig) back. If France and Britain had said (like for Austria and Czecoslovakia) "Who cares?" about your country, Poland would have merely been Germanized and Russified and there wouldn't be a Polish state nowadays. So yes, I guess we are the best of allies. I don't think another country would have declared war on one of the most powerful states (at the time) just because of some alliance with an unimportant country.

Originally Posted by bocian

Thanks for all the help France.

My pleasure. Since your country is now an America's lackey and you can't use anymore the Franco-German conflict, I think it won't happen anymore anyway.

[bocian]

Typical response...I expected it.