A case of Zionism and WN Racism

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Delbrück

But I asked first

That's not how the game works. You raised the issue and you do the explainings.

So please, explain why anyone should support or sympathise with Israel.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Delbrück

It all depends where you get your history lessons.

How about Benny Morris?

If you get them from the likes of Edwrad Said, and can't process them in an intelligent manner, then of course you'll think Israel is a Nazi-terroristic state.

Cut the patronising crap for a start.

Both side have thier version of history, and the truth is somewhere in between.

We also have the documentary sources from which we can form our own view. Liek the Balfour Declaration, the findings of the King-Crane Commission and those helpful maps that Elsasser posted above.

I'm curious to know why you're so passionate about the Israeli-Palestinia issue

I could equally say that I'm curious to know why you have taken it upon yourself to defend an ethnosupremacist, neocolonialist state? I'm not, so I won't.

and why you're so inclined to completely buy the Arab version.

I don't know the Palestinian "version" because I have never read it.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Delbrück

It all depends where you get your history lessons.

Relativism is of no use here. Israel has brought terror to the Palestinians and still is delivering it. That's not just past history but a sad and real fact in the present.

I'm curious to know why you're so passionate about the Israeli-Palestinia issue and why you're so inclined to completely buy the Arab version.

Has it occured to you that it might be for justice and fairness?

Israel is a terrorist state? mmm... I wonder what your definition for terror is.

Main Entry: ter·ror
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
synonym see FEAR
- ter·ror·less /-l&s/ adjective

Definitions #1 & #4. But I can provide others if needed.

Persecutes Christians? really? when? where? to my knowledge, the Christians are more persecuted by the Muslims. Hamas, which is a very strong faction of Palestinian politics is pan-Islamic, and I'm sure you know that Islamic extremists regard Christians (and Jews) as Dhimmis and not as equals.

Dhimmitude, for all to know, is an Islamic precept by which the non Islamic "people of the Book" (i.e. Christians and Jews) are tolerated and allowed to practice their religions as tributaries to Islam.

Of course that this practice implies a degree of "lesser" status, and throughout history this tolerance has been practiced in different degrees. But much as I may dislike Moslems, at least they do have a consideration towards Christianism in their religion. Whereas Judaism does not.

By the way Elsasser, I thought you of all people would know Arabs Islam better, because your big city (Strassburg) already looks like the Maghreb.

Or like Jaffa. Depends on in which direction you are looking.

That we oppose to Moslems or Arabs (or other Semites) being here doesn't mean that we oppose to them being in their lands. Again, it is a case of justice and fairness.

and the USA is evil?? Do you preferrer the Russians

Yes. What's wrong with the Russians?

or perhaps the Iranians as your allies?

The rejection of something does not automatically imply the acceptance of another.

as long as you refrain from hollow dogmatic slogans.

It is very convenient to demonize what you oppose by labeling it "hollow dogmatic slogan". But, is it decent?

[Delbrück]

The picture you btought is Palestinian propaganda. Here's a news flash: the area where that boy died was a war zone, and he got into crossfire (that the Palestinians started). He was probably hit by Israeli soldiars, but what proof is this? The Palestinians use their children as human shields, but that, for some reason, you fail to see.

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

Anyway I don't want to boycott Israel because it is a terrorist State - after all I support Russian "terror" against the Chechens and I would support any "terror" against the non-Europeans in Europe - but more because Israel's interests are against ours. I have to say that I even admire Israeli methods and army (very effective) from a purely "technical" point of view, but that doesn't mean at all that I support Israel.

If Israel treated the the Palestinians the way the Russians do, the Palestinian problem would have shrunken. On the other hand, Israel would never have got away with it, because Israel can't do what other do.
Conflicting interests? What are you talking about? I don't think Israel and France have conflicting interests, but if that's the reason for your negative feelings towards Israel, then I have more respect for you.

That's right, Palestinian Islamists are anti-Christian, but Palestinian nationalists (PLO) aren't, Arafat's wife was even Christian. Anyway in Talmud, non-Jews (goyim) are considered as subhumans, especially the Christians.

Arafat's wife was even Christian, emphasis on the "was". Palestinian society is perhaps the most "democratic" and open society amongst the Arab nations,but you wouldn't want to be a christian there, I can assure you that. As for the Talmud, very Jews actually believes that nonsense, but no one in Israel actually lives by this. You have zealots in every religion. Picking on something that was written during a time when Jews were persecuted by christians (and which is supported by a handful) as indeed a common excuse for hating Jews, but it's rather superficial - and as I said, it's just an excuse (and a pretty dmang bad one as well).

I had a huge link about Christians persecuted by Jews in Israel, I have to find it.

yes, find it. the other link you brought is about a very marginal ultra-orthodox Jewish group. those groups are usually anti Zionists, or at least non-zionists. they are scared from missionaries, and they don't like the secular state of Israel. Most of them don't serve the army, and I can tell you there is a lot of bad blood between them and other Israelis. They ARE appart of Israeli society, but they are a minority. If I were you I'd find something a little stronger to base your argument on...

Indeed I know Islam and the Arabs, and my city looks like Africa. The Arabs in Europe are invaders BUT that doesn't mean that I'm against every Arab. Just like the Arabs are invading my land, the Jews are invading Palestinians' lands, and that's why I feel closer to the Palestinians who fight for their land and their Nation.

that's interesting. and do you also feel close to Palestinians invading your land? on, no, wait. son't answer that, I know the answer: they got there because of the Jews. of course.

I also know that Francophobia is very strong in Israel (like in the US).

That's true. I think France has earned that Francophobia both in Israel and in the USA. Both countries have common interests with France, but Chiraque betrayed them along with most of the French public opinion. I, personaly, feel closer to Le Pen, and I certainly have more respect to him than to double standard, betraying hypocrites like you know who.

Yes, I support a Paris-Berlin-Moscow Axis. Why should I hate the Russians ?

First, I don't hate the Russians. I don't hate anyone. Paris-Berlin-Moscow Axis. Interesting, yet odd, concept. could you tell me what it's based on?

[Scoob]

I think Israel is a good idea. It is good for people to live in a community that reaffirms who they are, instead wandering of amongst aliens.

What is more of a problem is some attitudes and policies that have been used to defend Israel. I will never forget the words of a pro-Israel Jewish woman (in a teaching position, no less) suggesting that the US "bomb Iraq back to the Stone Age."

Where will this military entanglement between the West and the Middle East, which is essentially about Israel, end? Israel is a tiny nation that has failed to make friends amongst its neighbors, and relies upon military intervention from a distant superpower to maintain its existence, which nevertheless inspires even more anti-Israel antagonism. This is not sustainable foreign policy.

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Birzeit Students Describe “Education Under Occupation”

I'm touched. do you want me to add descriptions of Israelis who actually lost their whole families due to the Palestinian terror, I mean, "war of liberation"? let's not bring in those sentimental testimonies, which are with no doubt very saddening, but don't really have anything to do with the root of the problem we're discussing. Both sides have their share of grief, and neither will win in the "war" who's the bigger victim.

That they are leftists and are wrong in much doesn't mean that they are wrong in absolutely everything. Point in case, their anti-Jewish stance derived from the atrocities committed by Jews against their [racial, and more pure semites ] brothers the Palestinians.

atrocities? I think you don't know much about your Palesinian friends. During the war of 48' (and before) they commited several atrocities, and if they had the chance they would show no mercy, unlike Israel by they. Neomi Shemer, a right winger Israeli poet, said in an interview: "The Arabs love their murder bloody, hot and humid. If they ever had control over us we would have missed the cold 'humane' murder of the Nazis". I thought at the time she was going too far, but you know what? she had a point.

Sneaky remark. Actually, 50 years down the line we might as well see the Arab world reducing Israel down to ashes. Do not forget that you are surrounded by millions of Arabs and other Moslems. Which is a good reason why a Jew would go as far as to joining a board for European Nationalists, and try to convince them against the Islam.

LOL. You're OK.
Well, I think extreme European Nationalists will never be able to support Israel, becuase they have a hard time getting detached from their antisemitism. I don't have a problem with that, and I don't need everyone to like me. I do, however, think Israel has a lot in common with Europe. First, the Jews lived there for 2,000 thousand years, they got and gave a lot to this continent. Most Jews are partly European, many Europeans (especially in Spain, Portugal and Germany) are partly Jews. We share a lot in common whether you guys like it or not, and we DO have common interests. I think Israel is in the forefront of the enlightened world, and Europe has an interest in its existence because it focuses the Islamic rage in it instead of Europe. What do you think will happen when the Muslims will gain confidence in Spain? While you guys are looking at the Jew as if he was the bogeyman, and while you think he's the reason that you have problems with the Muslims, a helluva time bomb is ticking right under your nose. tick-tick, can you hear it yet?

I do, however, have hope in my people. And in the same way that we expelled the Mahomedans (and, as we were at it, the Mosaics too) in the past, we will expel them (both) in the future. I was educated in the Catholic religion and therefore I do not believe that our fates are written.

well, good luck buddy. you may hate me for being a Jew or maybe just for being a zionist and an Israeli, but I'm with you. I want a white and Christian Europe. This is the Europe Jews helped build and this is the Europe that is part of them. It betrayed them over and over again, it expelled them and murdered them. But this is their Europe too, and that's the wat it shoud stay. France opposed putting the Judeo-Christian element in the EU constitution. to my knowledge Spain and all the others played along and agreed to erase European herritage from Europe. If they did that, you're actually capable of being optimistic? You're a special person, I admire you.

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

See Elsasser's maps.

And that's proof that that is Palestinian territory. You may not know this, but a substantial amount of "Palestinians" are descendants of arabs who migrated to the holyland after the Zionists and German Templars settlef there and developed it. They came to this land from all over arabia and even from Sudan (the Sudanese were brought usually as slaves for arabs. many of them live in Jericho which is in the west bank, and others live in a village in Israel by the name of Jisar a-Zarqua).
The name "palestine" was given by the Greeks who tried to weaken the Jews over two millenniums ago after the Philistines, and the British used it as well. The Arabs themselves addopted it only in the 20th century as a reaction to the Jewish return to this land. If the Jews didn't arrive, they would still be "southern Syrians", as they caled themselves up to the early 20th century.

A Palestinian terrorist:

Get a glimps of other peace loving Palestians in this link. you can even find there mean Israeli children:
http://rotter.net/israel/

Do not forget your own words: "when you use terror to achieve political goals, you have to pay a price." Because terror is what Israel has used against the Palestinian peoples.

I have bad memory. remind me how Israel used terror against the "native" palestinian.

Let us not fall for a simplification of a complexity. The Palestinian fight for their rights is not to be compared with Islamic terrorism. Palestinians do have the right to fight for their freedom and their lifes. It is only fair.

I agree with you on this issue, although many Israelis don't. However, nothing justifies murder of civilians. nothing. when you don't condemn those methods, you're basically aproving of them and sending a signal to Islamic terrorists that terror works.

Correction. The Basques are a people. You probably meant Basque left-independentist terrorists. If they don't deliver more killings it is not for their humanity, but because they don't have the means for more.

The Basque left-independentist terrorists don't have the means for more killings, because they don't have support for such behavior from their people. The palestinian people do support bombing buses, as many Muslims "understand" the Islamic Jihad against the USA and the West.

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

That's not how the game works. You raised the issue and you do the explainings.

So please, explain why anyone should support or sympathise with Israel.

A little patience, much of it is coming out in this discussion.

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Reinhold Elstner

How about Benny Morris?

I'm really happy you know Morris. Well, I don't know how much of him you've read, nore do I know how much you're aware to the faults that were later founf in his work, but I'll wrap up the main issue:
Morris admits the Israeli soldiars committed a certain degree of ethnic cleansing during the war of 48'. But he also states that 600,000 Jews were attacked by six Arab armies, by a hostile population in this land, and that there was not really adisciplined Israeli army back then. They hardly had uniforms at the time, let alone ammunition. Many "soldiers" were actually new arrived immigrants who had no army training, who came from different countries and backrounds, many of them were victimized by Arabs before.
So what Morris is saying in his latest book is, OK, we did it, but we shouldn't regret it, because we were fighting for our lives, and had the shoe been on the other foot - we would had a secound holocaust. the case of the Gush Ezion massacre was a scary demonstration of that.


I wrote:
If you get them from the likes of Edwrad Said, and can't process them in an intelligent manner, then of course you'll think Israel is a Nazi-terroristic state.
You replied:

Cut the patronising crap for a start.

I'm a Jew. patronizing and laughing about ourselves is what we do...


I wrote:
I'm curious to know why you're so passionate about the Israeli-Palestinia issue
you replied:

I could equally say that I'm curious to know why you have taken it upon yourself to defend an ethnosupremacist, neocolonialist state? I'm not, so I won't.

Easy, I'm an Israeli. Israel is not neo-colonial, you can say (and that's another issue) that the settlements are colonial. I' by the way, disagree to that as well, but many Israelis would agree with you on that. What's wrong with being ethnosupremacist? I belive Israel belongs to the Jews, as I belive Germany belongs to the Germans. I'm all for minorities, but as long as they are minorities. if they start jeopardising the character of my country, then I say - hasta la vista.

I don't know the Palestinian "version" because I have never read it.

Oh yes you have. Ilan Papeh, the communist self hating Jew who supports the ban (which was the subject of the thread) bought the Palestinian version or at least chose to talk about the aspects that served his political goal. Many Israelis did the same for different reasons. Scholars from all over the world bought that as well. why? that's the bon ton now. it sound simplistic, but once you really dive into the material, you realize how many manipulations were made by everyone: by Israelis who claimed that the Jewish soldiers were almost 100% OK during the 48' war, by Israelis who wanted to appear as big peace lovers and "discovered" massacres that never happend, and of course by Arab scholars who would never admit to their faults. by the way, one of the only Arabs that in fact somewhat admited they had faults was Rashid Khalidi in "The Palestinians and 1948: the Underlying causes of failure". But there are a lot of manipulations and distortions there as well...

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Relativism is of no use here. Israel has brought terror to the Palestinians and still is delivering it. That's not just past history but a sad and real fact in the present.

Oh you're right. France did that lately to Ivory Coast, the UK and the USA to Iraq, and Spain to Moroco with Perejil. What was I thinking?

Has it occured to you that it might be for justice and fairness?

You have a good sense of humor.

Of course that this practice implies a degree of "lesser" status, and throughout history this tolerance has been practiced in different degrees. But much as I may dislike Moslems, at least they do have a consideration towards Christianism in their religion. Whereas Judaism does not.

Judaism does not comete with Christianity for it is an exclusive religion. Islam is inclusive like Christianity, hence the conflict between the two. During much of the middle ages Islam was more tollerent with Judaism, however after illumination swept Europe, that changed. In addition, Jews are much more secular. They have gone through the process of illumination.and Muslims have'nt. eso es él.

Or like Jaffa. Depends on in which direction you are looking.

DId you mean to say there were many Jews in Srassburg as well? Jaffa as mostly Arab. As for the Jews in France, most of them today are immigrants from North Africa, and I think they don't belong there, unlike French Jews who've lived there for centuries. In any case, I think Jews belong in Israel, not anywhere else.

That we oppose to Moslems or Arabs (or other Semites) being here doesn't mean that we oppose to them being in their lands. Again, it is a case of justice and fairness. [img]images/smilies/stirpes1/wink0001.gif[/img]

give me a break. would most of you support them if their enemy was not Israel? I think most of you support them becasue you simply can't stans Jews. I don't mind, as long as people like that admit that's their reason and not hide behind leftist argument...

Yes. What's wrong with the Russians?

The concept of democracy is foreign to the Russians, they are laid back, and hinestly, sometimes I agree with the old German notion that they are white Asians. But let's put it at that: If you were given a choice to live in Russia or the USA in the same living standards, where would you chose to go?

I wrote: or perhaps the Iranians as your allies?
You wrote:

The rejection of something does not automatically imply the acceptance of another.

But sometimes it does, and this is such a time.


I wrote: as long as you refrain from hollow dogmatic slogans.
you wrote:

It is very convenient to demonize what you oppose by labeling it "hollow dogmatic slogan". But, is it decent?

It's not demonizing, it's a description of reality. And yes, when it's justified, it's decent. One can oppose my views without being dogmatic, as you (in most of the posts) and others here have proved very well.

[Delbrück]

Originally Posted by Scoob

I will never forget the words of a pro-Israel Jewish woman (in a teaching position, no less) suggesting that the US "bomb Iraq back to the Stone Age."

The Iraq issue was NOT an Israeli interest IMO. A weak but unified Iraq under Saddam was better than what you have now in that country. when you have a vacancy, someone comes along and takes over. I don't think the Americans can control who that some-1 will be. The democracy thing is nice and it sets an example for other arab nations, but the Arabs are not ready for democracy. first, they have to reform their religion like Christians and Jews did, and they need to enter into the 20th century (after that, will think avout expecting them to enter the 21 century).

Where will this military entanglement between the West and the Middle East, which is essentially about Israel, end? Israel is a tiny nation that has failed to make friends amongst its neighbors, and relies upon military intervention from a distant superpower to maintain its existence, which nevertheless inspires even more anti-Israel antagonism. This is not sustainable foreign policy.

"...a tiny nation that has failed to make friends amongst its neighbors" - I'm speachless. Seriously, I don't even know where to start. As to the rest: if it wasn't in the "West's" best interest, it would never have supported Israel. The military entanglement between the West and the Middle East is not about Israel, but about oil.

[Delbrück]

and... I guess I saved the best for last, but alas I have to go to sleep. Solar, I truely respect your honesty and I will reply - just not now (it's almost 3:00 a.m. here).

Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff

OK, let me jot down some random thoughts but before I do please allow me to disclaim that this response constitutes any complete list of crimes or misdeeds involving Israelis:

Israel is based on a lie, the lie of the holocaust. That lie is pushed so that funds can be had or extorted from other people. Check the gross national product of Israel. The last time I could find statistics, Israel had a GNP of 8 billion (US). This was probably in the 1970s. Nevertheless, the USA provided 3 billion up front, and 3 billion in arms gifts. Germany provided another 1 billion.

Israelis stole their country from the Palestinians. They did so by using two methods. First, the invented "terrorism". They did exactly what they now accuse Hamas of doing, bombing and killing "innocent civillians". Secondly, Israel came into being by bribery. They bribed or blackmailed Harry Trumand and probably some British lawmakers into agreeing with their idea of an ethnically pure country in place of Palestine. They expelled the Palestinians by gunpoint to do this which we now call ethnic cleansing. Israel says it needs this money to provide for its "security", meaning to insulate themselves from the actions of the people they stole their "country" from. Israel, to this day, is run by nothing more than gangsters and thugs. The Fat Pig himself has been indited for war crimes and will be sought for trial once he leaves office.

Since they invaded Lebenon, Israel has been guilty, DAILY, of killing innocent people to further its cause. Some are killed in the streets of the occupied territory as we have all seen on televison, some are murdered in their homes in far away countries for simply having the nerve to oppose this brutal tyranny. Dr. Gerald Bull is a good example of such a murder. And because Israel greases (I hope you understand this term because it is so accurate) politicians in every country, these murderers are never brought to justice.

Delbrueck, I am getting tired of writing, but I can tell you details of bibery and illegal activity concering the USA in fund raising for our internal political candidates as well as the funding of Israel and how that pipeline is maintained if you, or others, are interested. Do you want to discuss how they have used my country twice in recent years to fight their wars?

My country behaves badly but not as badly as the Israelis and their Zionist lobby. In my 57 years on this planet, I have met no Jews that weren't Zionists. I do understand there are a couple of these, Norman Finkelstein and another writer whose name I forget, but mostly, what I say about Jewish support for Israel is true. Therefore and since I am anti-Zionist, I find no problem in saying I am anti-Jewish also. Let's not sugar-coat this by saying "anti-Semitic", that is THIER term, not mine. I have nothing against Semites if they are non-Jewish.

But I can go further. You see, in my country the vast mass of my countrymen who inhabit the midlands think of themselves as Fundamentalist Christians. These people believe, among other things, that aiding Jews, the Chosen Race who automatically go to heaven regardless of crimes, insures their place in heaven also. In other words sticking their heads up a Jew's ass is a good thing. These people are also rabbid Zionists, even though they are Christians. These Zio-Christians are also on my personal shit list and I have no possible use in life for these morons.

So, do I want to boycott a bunch of criminals who run an illegal country and daily work against my interests? I honestly TRY my very best to damage these people daily.

I don't know if my strident views on this subject disqualify me from membership here but one must be true to himself first.

[Eriugena]

Originally Posted by Delbrück

I'm really happy you know Morris.

My interest in Morris extends only so far as he openly admits to atrocities like Deir Yassin and not only that, thinks they were good and that Israel should be prepared to do more of this if needs be.

So what Morris is saying in his latest book is, OK, we did it, but we shouldn't regret it, because we were fighting for our lives, and had the shoe been on the other foot - we would had a secound holocaust.

A second one? LOL! The first one belongs to the Ashkenazi fairy tale tradition! Sell it somewhere else, we're not buying.

the case of the Gush Ezion massacre was a scary demonstration of that.

Is that were the Romans killed four billion Jewish children?

Easy, I'm an Israeli. Israel is not neo-colonial,

Yes it is. You must think we are idiots or something? We are all capable of reading Herzl and Jabotinsky for ourselves.

you can say (and that's another issue) that the settlements are colonial.

I do because that is what they are.

What's wrong with being ethnosupremacist?

The objection is to the double standard. One rule for Jews, another rule for everyone else. Jews are at the forefront of preaching multiculturalism and open borders and screaming about the evils of racism, whilst being the biggest racists on the planet. In this country we have a woman of Israeli origin who likes to come on the media and hector us as being racists and calling for more immigration. That is hypocrisy aprt from the fact that she should keep her snout out of our business and remove herself back to wherever she came from.

I belive Israel belongs to the Jews,

Stolen property never "belongs" to the thief.

I'm all for minorities, but as long as they are minorities.

Demographic projections seem to point to you becoming the minority before too long. What then?

if they start jeopardising the character of my country,

You don't have a country, you are squatting on someone else's land.

Oh yes you have.

Excuse me, I know what I have and have not read; you don't.