Italy: Muslims in Europe 'menace to peace', says ambassador

[Marulus]

Italy: Muslims in Europe 'menace to peace', says ambassador

Israeli ambassador to the Vatican Oded Ben-Hur spoke to students at the American University of Rome about the media's coverage of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and Muslims in Europe.



Rome, 20 March(AKI) - Muslim immigrants are a serious threat to peace and democracy in Europe, according to the Israeli Ambassador to the Vatican Oded Ben-Hur.

"[Muslims] have a different agenda, and are beginning to be a real serious menace to democracy and peace in Europe," he said during a speech at the American University of Rome.

Ben-Hur also criticised what he called the Italians' "docile, ostrich-like approach" to Muslims in Italy.

"People here in Italy should have raised hell," he said.

Ben-Hur spoke at length about extremist Islam and what he saw as a "sharp decline in their [Islamic] culture," following the expulsion of Muslims from European lands in the 15th century during the Spanish 'reconquista'.

He referred to leaflets that he claims to have in the Israeli embassy, that are linked to a programme by Osama bin Laden "to re-conquer Europe."

"They (Muslims) are witnessing what they define as the death of their culture, so they have introduced the culture of death," he told students.

"This is why those guys with explosive belts kill Israelis and Jews, for the sake of killing Jews and killing Israelis."

Referring to media coverage, he said important material was missing from news reports.

"But [people] don't see the incitement by the imam, they don't see the incitement in the mosques."

Ben-Hur said Israel still treated the wounded from Gaza in Israeli hospitals and that Hamas sent badly injured people to die in Israel.

"Hamas, who is in charge in the Gaza Strip, they send people that they cannot handle in their hospitals," he said.

"Sometimes they send them to die in Israel to give us a bad image, we manage to save most of them, but nobody would write about it, nobody would be interested, this is not news!"

"Because of the fear of terrorism, we are losing, day in and day out, the war of image."

"The problem is information wise, propaganda wise, we dont have huge numbers of casualties. That (show) we are suffering. These are not sexy figures," said the ambassador.

The senior diplomat was pessimistic about the prospect of peace between Israel and the Palestinians and said there was no "partner" with which to build an accord.

"As time goes by, if these [Palestinians] are the people we are going to live with, do we trust them?" he asked. "Aren't we risking the future of our nation? We need pressure, a unified pressure."

With regard to Iran, he said that the country's hardline president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was a very unpredictable person and Iran's Shiite revolution should frighten people around the world.

Regarding Iran's nuclear programme, he did not believe a nuclear attack on Israel would take place.

"Ahmadinejad is building his atomic capacity not to destroy Israel," said the ambassador.

Instead, Ben-Hur focused the debate on Iran's alleged nuclear missiles and its range, which he said could reach Europe.

[source]

[Strengthandhonour]

Perhaps they are realizing that if Europe goes Islamic they will only have the US to protect them.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Perhaps they are realizing that if Europe goes Islamic they will only have the US to protect them.

Actually, they are trying to secure their position on several sides, one of them is India.

India-Israel Partnership

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Strengthandhonour

Perhaps they are realizing that if Europe goes Islamic they will only have the US to protect them.

They don't rely on the U.S. to protect them. They rely on Europe & the U.S. for money which goes into funding their defenses. Had the U.S. not helped them militarily and the U.S. and Europe not given them such large amounts of money Israel would be significantly less wealthy and spending more then 25%+ of it's GDP on defense spending.

[M.R.]

I guess they want to show Islamic invasion in Europe as some part of bigger "West + Israel vs. Islam" picture, so that Europeans who have problems with Islam immigration will end up supporting Israel and USA.

[Waarnemer]

Regardless of him, he is obviously right, and although much could be said on the Jewish position in society and through history, they aren’t self destructive as are the Arabs with their dead cult.

[Eurovox]

Originally Posted by M.R.

I guess they want to show Islamic invasion in Europe as some part of bigger "West + Israel vs. Islam" picture, so that Europeans who have problems with Islam immigration will end up supporting Israel and USA.

Forget about the man's ethnic origin and tell me frankly that Islam is not a menace to Europe!

He is totally correct in what he says, and the signs are everywhere in Europe, be it in Madrid, Brussels, London or Berlin.

There aren't any West vs Islam, but Islam vs all the rest, Islam vs freedom, Islam vs our European way of life.

The history of my nation, Portugal, was built with the blood of our martyrs who fought the islamic invaders. Islam is the eternal enemy of Europe.

Stop seeing Jews all over the place and concentrate only in reality.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Regardless of him, he is obviously right, and although much could be said on the Jewish position in society and through history, they aren’t self destructive as are the Arabs with their dead cult.

Well, yes. But the comment is not about their role in society and through history. It is about Israelis drawing a parallel between the aggression of Islam against Europe, with the aggression of Israel against Palestinians in the Middle East, and attempting to make it the same cause. Why, if not, does he mention the Middle East all of the time and then tries to provoke fear over Europe?

Regarding Iran's nuclear programme, he did not believe a nuclear attack on Israel would take place.

"Ahmadinejad is building his atomic capacity not to destroy Israel," said the ambassador.

Instead, Ben-Hur focused the debate on Iran's alleged nuclear missiles and its range, which he said could reach Europe.

Mission accomplished. Which is the task of ambassadors, to be envoys with missions to serve their countries. Not to give cultural conferences.

But tell me, do you see that Iran is the threat to Europe? Or is it the millions of Muslims currently living throughout Europe? Was Iraq a threat to Europe? Actually, it was said to be a threat to the World.

And where are those Iraqi weapons of massive destruction that were going to be found if the country was invaded? The story is a little more sophisticated now. We know that Iran has nuclear technology, though that doesn't mean that it is a very powerful one. Most likely it is not. Definitely not enough to make an important and substantial hit on Europe which, if they tried, it would provoke a war in Europe against Iran, and Europeans would likely react against Muslims in Europe. How can anyone pretend that that is in the interest of Iran? Worse, how can anyone buy that story?

This is selling a story similar to that of the weapons of massive destruction in Iraq, only that it is improved this time because, if Iran was invaded or if it was attacked and its nuclear facilities were reported damaged, no one could ever prove that Iran was not going to launch a full scale nuclear attack against Europe.

If your concern is the Muslim invasion of Europe which is on a pretty advanced stage in some countries already, then consider that the man who is selling you this story is the ambassador of the same country, Israel, which, together with the United States, is working to open the gates of Europe to a Muslim country of 70 million people.

And sure, someone will tell you about laicism in Turkey, like they say to excuse Albania. But you already see many of those Turks in the streets of your town everyday, and maybe you can even think idependently and realize of the hit that this would represent.

So, Israel is concerned about the expansion of Islam in Europe... with regards to Iran, but not with regards to the 70 million Turks?

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Eurovox

Forget about the man's ethnic origin and tell me frankly that Islam is not a menace to Europe!

He is totally correct in what he says, and the signs are everywhere in Europe, be it in Madrid, Brussels, London or Berlin.

There aren't any West vs Islam, but Islam vs all the rest, Islam vs freedom, Islam vs our European way of life.

The history of my nation, Portugal, was built with the blood of our martyrs who fought the islamic invaders. Islam is the eternal enemy of Europe.

Stop seeing Jews all over the place and concentrate only in reality.

You must have mistaken me for some kind of Jihad-Nazi who likes Muslims terrorism just because they don't like Jews. But this is far from truth, I'm just saying it's not really wise to side with anyone in this conflict, just because they don't like Muslims too.

Many people view that if they are against Islam they must support the "West" and Israel with all means since they fight against Islam and for democracy and peace - notice how that's what that Jew said as well, that Islam is a threat to peace and democracy in Europe.

The fight of the "West" and Jews against Islam has nothing to do with Europeans and the future of Europe, but is fought because of American and Israeli interests. In fact, American are eager to support Muslims in Europe when they have to (Kosovo).

I consider America and Americanization to be an enemy of Europe as well, not only Islam, so I'm not really interested in siding with them against Islam, and also as I said before, our goals are totally different, personaly I don't care what Muslims do in the middle east, is their land and they can do whatever they want to as long as it doesn't affect us. Europe is of course a different matter.

I've seen 'anti-Islamists' here who had strong support for Americans and their war, not only that, I heard some of them saying we should take them and their patriotism as an example. Of course in war often an enemy of my enemy is my friend, but the truth is us and Americans don't have the same enemy here, our enemy is islamization of Europe and their enemy is whoever stands in the way of their interests.

I do agree with some of his (Israeli ambassador) points, but as I said, you should be careful with such people because you never know what kind of agenda they have. I don't mean "Jews" here, but pro-Westerners, pro-Israel, pro-American, pro-democracy oriented people in general.

Also, I have a lot of respect for you land's history of fighting Islam, our land has fought against Muslims as well.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Well, yes. But the comment is not about their role in society and through history. It is about Israelis drawing a parallel between the aggression of Islam against Europe, with the aggression of Israel against Palestinians in the Middle East, and attempting to make it the same cause. Why, if not, does he mention the Middle East all of the time and then tries to provoke fear over Europe?

You are right. But he pleads for his own people and interests. But in the end there is more freedom in that tiny spot that is Israel then in all of that cultural and geographical dessert we consider the Arab world. There would be no Jew alive if the Arabs would have the opportunity, yet they like the victimized role, both there and in Europe, and in both cases they are being better treated then they would ever consider to treat the other group. The Arabs have a twisted idea on the world and a misplaced feeling of superiority, they praise the historic occupation of European soul, yet become childishly emotional when the crusades come up, they have a sort of explosive emotional disorder when it comes to freedom of expression in places far from their homes, but the Arab world fails in producing hardly new literature, people barely read and unemployment remains high, a small nation like South Korea makes 20.000 new inventions a year, the entire Arabic less then 200, they lose on all levels with the rest of the planet. Europe and the West are stronger, more tolerant, safer, more powerful, richer and happier then them, the west, including Israel is intellectual and spiritual free, the Arabic world is not. It’s a anti human danger that is the opponent of both Europe and Israel. If I were Israel I would build a second wall to be even more sure.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

But he pleads for his own people and interests.

Why is he not talking about this to his own people in Israel? Why is he adressing Europeans?

There would be no Jew alive if the Arabs would have the opportunity, yet they like the victimized role, both there and in Europe, and in both cases they are being better treated then they would ever consider to treat the other group.

Arguably there won't be any Arab alive if the Jews had their opportunity. This is a conflict that has nothing to do with Europe, or at least it shouldn't have anything to do with Europe, but this Israeli ambassador obviously wants us to be on Israel's side.

Europe and the West are stronger, more tolerant, safer, more powerful, richer and happier then them, the west, including Israel is intellectual and spiritual free, the Arabic world is not.

I won't preach Arabic world how to live their lives in their countries and don't really bother with how they live there and how much freedom they have, but if an average European is "safer", "stronger", "more powerful" and "happier" than them, than they really must be on a low point, considering the current situation in Europe. As for being "richer", I don't consider being rich much important, and certainly I don't feel being 'tolerant' is something to be very proud of, at least not in the way of what is understood as 'tolerance' today. It's one of the things that got us in this position in the first place.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by M.R.

Why is he not talking about this to his own people in Israel? Why is he adressing Europeans?

We are facing backwardness from the same source, a source that loves dead more then life - that could be a reason, the other one is just politics and strategically urging for anti Muslim sentiments.

Arguably there won't be any Arab alive if the Jews had their opportunity. This is a conflict that has nothing to do with Europe, or at least it shouldn't have anything to do with Europe, but this Israeli ambassador obviously wants us to be on Israel's side.

Fundamentalists within the Jewish society are in percentage much lower then in the Arab world where the population in a more then predominate manner is extreme, intolerant and fundamentalist. There is an anti Jewish propaganda machine dominating the entire Arabic world, by the means of militia, television, newspapers, religious leaders and holy books, while far, far from every Israeli is Zionistic or a religious fanatic. If the Jews wouldn’t live over there they would invent other problems and enemies, and they would just murder one another over minor theological differences, in fact they are doing so already.

I won't preach Arabic world how to live their lives in their countries and don't really bother with how they live there and how much freedom they have, but if an average European is "safer", "stronger", "more powerful" and "happier" than them, than they really must be on a low point, considering the current situation in Europe. As for being "richer", I don't consider being rich much important, and certainly I don't feel being 'tolerant' is something to be very proud of, at least not in the way of what is understood as 'tolerance' today. It's one of the things that got us in this position in the first place.

You are underestimating our freedom. In the Arab world every aspect is defined by Islam, that is huge handicap, since Islam is also political and contains an opinion on all, there is no escaping from that. In the West you can live your life the way of your own choice, in the Middle East life is constructed in a tribal way.

Further more there is nothing wrong with tolerance, I said it earlier that I don’t even mind migration, I mind mass migration and the lose of heritage, change and lose of culture and ground. Muslims don’t tolerate woman, Muslims don’t tolerate people that hold other ideas, Muslims don't consider life to be important, Muslims don’t tolerate individuals that manage and control their own choices free from the dogma of the supernatural. You are free in the West, we have free press, politics, freedom of education, freedom of marriage and relations, in the West you will not be hanged because of individual sexual orientation, freedom of opinion, freedom of information, freedom of believes and religion, freedom for ridicule and satire, freedom of science, freedom for criticism, freedom of art, etc.. If you don’t agree then that’s because you simplify the things, you see its not because we don’t live in a nationalistic society or whatever model you desire, that we don’t have freedom, if we don’t live in one its because the majority did choice so, if people in Western Europe vote Socialist then that doesn’t mean we don’t have freedom, it means many people hold different ideas then us, and that’s also freedom.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

We are facing backwardness from the same source, a source that loves dead more then life - that could be a reason, the other one is just politics and strategically urging for anti Muslim sentiments.

Our backwardness was there before the hordes of Muslims immigrants. It's the result why they're here anyway. It's our own fault.

Fundamentalists within the Jewish society are in percentage much lower then in the Arab world where the population in a more then predominate manner is extreme, intolerant and fundamentalist. There is an anti Jewish propaganda machine dominating the entire Arabic world, by the means of militia, television, newspapers, religious leaders and holy books, while far, far from every Israeli is Zionistic or a religious fanatic. If the Jews wouldn’t live over there they would invent other problems and enemies, and they would just murder one another over minor theological differences, in fact they are doing so already.

Just because they're louder than Jews and more open doesn't mean much. Jews can't afford this kind of behaviour because they rely on support of the liberal and tolerant West which happens to be disgusted by such 'fundamentalism'. Still... The silent river destroys mountains (hard to translate to English).

You are underestimating our freedom. In the Arab world every aspect is defined by Islam, that is huge handicap, since Islam is also political and contains an opinion on all, there is no escaping from that. In the West you can live your life the way of your own choice, in the Middle East life is constructed in a tribal way.

Which is not all that wrong.. Who knows, I won't judge them as I said before. Their countries, their rules.

Further more there is nothing wrong with tolerance, I said it earlier that I don’t even mind migration, I mind mass migration and the lose of heritage, change and lose of culture and ground.

It's nothing wrong with it of course, but not with this 'tolerance' we are forced to live with now.

Muslims don’t tolerate woman, Muslims don’t tolerate people that hold other ideas, Muslims don't consider life to be important, Muslims don’t tolerate individuals that manage and control their own choices free from the dogma of the supernatural. You are free in the West, we have free press, politics, freedom of education, freedom of marriage and relations, in the West you will not be hanged because of individual sexual orientation, freedom of opinion, freedom of information, freedom of believes and religion, freedom for ridicule and satire, freedom of science, freedom for criticism, freedom of art, etc..

Still... There are other things that are not so tolerated by our society, you should know that too. We do have this freedoms surely (sometimes even abused), but do we, as European nations have freedoms? Speaking about my nation, it's becoming just another puppet of big powers and our national interests largely ignored. Muslims, with all the things you listed, at least don't have to fear about their culture (no matter how primitive it is to you) and their people becoming extinct.

If you don’t agree then that’s because you simplify the things, you see its not because we don’t live in a nationalistic society or whatever model you desire, that we don’t have freedom, if we don’t live in one its because the majority did choice so, if people in Western Europe vote Socialist then that doesn’t mean we don’t have freedom, it means many people hold different ideas then us, and that’s also freedom.

I simplify the things? I don't blame the majority of people for what we have now. That would be foolish. Maybe it's different in your position living in Netherlands, I don't know what situation there is, but here majority of people would hold nationalistic, patriotic beliefs. "Voting" is just another farse and it doesn't change much, who is there to vote for a nationalist? In my country, no one. I don't trust our politicians even if they consider themselves as 'nationalistic' (they aren't).

Democracy is not freedom, or at least not this kind of democracy (democracy in a way of ancient Slovenian state of Carantania had much more sense, but this is another issue), I don't think that just because majority decides we should live under this or that regime that mean freedom and fool myself that I live in "freedom" because I can go voting, and vote for some stupid politician, even though my vote doesn't change anything.