Europeans with jewish ancestry: still europeans?

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by svin

Actually usually people even with very distant jewish ancestors are very positive towards Jews and even Judaism.

I would agree. I think this is especially true in the Anglosphere and likely in the Russia of the oligarchs. Christopher Hitchens is just one example of someone who "discovered" a Jewish granny in the family closet when he moved to the world of New York journalism.

Originally Posted by Plethon

Or even if he has, it is in that case only a one-sided relationship: he might be fond of Jewry, but the Jewry not fond of him.

Nicholas Sarkozy and Bernard Kouchner are two who heard the "call of the shofar".



Yes, I think they will be used and then tossed aside by real Jews sometime in the future.

Originally Posted by Exeter

There are several cases of people who have become curious and proud of their Jewish roots in their senior years.

I've seen it jokingly called "adult-onset Judaism" elsewhere on the Net.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The question is if they served the nation or if they served the country. I argue that they served the countries while making a disservice to the nations, which they corrupted to the bones.

That's right. Just one example is the German "patriot" Fritz Haber:

Fritz Haber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Mynydd

One problem with these "services" is the nature of lobbying, which is not unique to Jews. You don't need religious Jews to have them lobbying inside a host country, serving their interests and the country's interests at the same time. Even liberal Jews or simply atheistic/agnostic Jews do that.

Lobbying from within a host country is a deceit that serves the interests of a strange group against the interests of the core group, which is the nation.

If you analyze the working of the financial and trade system based in the Anglo-Saxon (or Liberal) School, you may come to ask yourself where the gains come from if you are not doing a physical effort to produce any goods or services. The answer is straight: your gains are others' losses.

Lobbying follows this practice, by benefitting the lobbyist group at the loss of the people who don't belong to that group.

In other words, Jewish lobbying is the most crude and bleeding form of racism, against the people who shelter them.

All very good points. As you mentioned, the Jewish method can be taken up by non-Jews who learn to enrich themselves using the same destructive techniques.

[bioblitzkrieg]

Both physical and philosophical realms are equally important, a blood born christian can become a jew and sell his motherland out and move to Israel, and a person with complete Jewish backround can despise israel and recognize a type of quality in being that is normally associated to european culture. Personal belief is a determiner absolutely...but!

the phenotype of the person also must apply, a sephardic jew with a darker complexion can never pass nor should be allowed to pass as a scandinavian in scandinavia, but in southern italy, greece or spain, this supposed former jew could fit in without disturbing the collective phenotypes which dominant the landscape. If his spirituality was loyal and member to the indigenous culture he lived in, i do not see this as much of a threat, but one can say im biased also.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I would agree. I think this is especially true in the Anglosphere and likely in the Russia of the oligarchs. Christopher Hitchens is just one example of someone who "discovered" a Jewish granny in the family closet when he moved to the world of New York journalism.

I think that it also depends on their political ideology and thought.
For exemple, it would not have the same impact if the man is a NeoCon or an anti-American/Zionist.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Nicholas Sarkozy and Bernard Kouchner are two who heard the "call of the shofar".

However, both of these two men are really Jews, they do not belong to the group of those "having some distant Jewish ancestry".

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Plethon

However, both of these two men are really Jews, they do not belong to the group of those "having some distant Jewish ancestry".

Actually, Sarkozy is only 1/4 Jewish (from his grandfather) and Kouchner is 1/2 (on his father side).

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Actually, Sarkozy is only 1/4 Jewish (from his grandfather) and Kouchner is 1/2 (on his father side).

I thought Sarkozy's mother was a Jewess from Greece.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Plethon

I thought Sarkozy's mother was a Jewess from Greece.

Yes, she's herself.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by bioblitzkrieg

i do not see this as much of a threat, but one can say im biased also.

I for one, would say that you are surely biased. I only have to look at your profile to guess it.

Please, mind your own business.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Plethon

I thought Sarkozy's mother was a Jewess from Greece.

Yes, but it seems to be a little more complicated.

In fact, Sarkozy's grandfather was Jewish (Aron Mallah), but his paternal grandmother was a French Catholic named Adèle Bouvier. Aron (falsely ?) converted to Catholicism and changed his name to Benedict, but probably only in order to marry Adèle.

The thing is that when he was young, Sarkozy[/font] was especially close to his grandfather, as his Hungarian father leaved his mother. And he still remains very close to his Jewish family since then. But I don't know if he consider himself as a Jew. Maybe, maybe not.

More informations here :
EJP | News | France | Nicolas Sarkozy, new President of France: Past and Future
EJP | News | France | Sarkozy: "My roots are in Salonika"

[Martín Zalacaín]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Nicholas Sarkozy and Bernard Kouchner are two who heard the "call of the shofar".

From my point of view, all european leaders are hypnotized by the sound of the shofar. It happens that Sarkozy is half jew, but they have shown us that no jewish ancestry is required to be a servant of jewry's interests. What I mean is: in the case of these people, who betray so indecently european values, there's no need in even looking up in their lineage. They are definetly non europeans.

[Erik P]

This has been brought up before elsewhere, but.. what if you don't even know you have Jewish ancestors? These days many hardly know the names of their ancestors a couple of generations back. Going by common conception, about 90% of everyone not blond & blue eyed, or with some silly birth mark or whatever, in Sweden would have Walloon, Gypsy, or some other ridiculous ancestry (nothing wrong with Walloons, but that there was a mass immigration of Wallonians to Sweden is a myth).

To be more on topic; I think it's the knowledge or feeling of being part of Something Else/Better might be what causes separate loyalties. Genetics is of course nothing to disregard, but it's still about where your heart is.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

...

To be more on topic; I think it's the knowledge or feeling of being part of Something Else/Better might be what causes separate loyalties. Genetics is of course nothing to disregard, but it's still about where your heart is.

That is my view too. What the rest of us think of Nicholas Sarkozy, Bernard Kouchner and David Miliband's Jewish heritage is of little importance; it is what Sarkozy, Kouchner and Miliband themselves think that matters. Do they have other loyalties and obligations? Only time will tell.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

But I don't know if he (Sarkozy) consider himself as a Jew. Maybe, maybe not.

The important thing is the fact that "they" consider Sarkozy as one of them. Demography has changed the rules, and Jews are quick to adapt. Nowadays, you don't need anymore to have a Jewish mother to be considered a Jew, or at least to be a part of the Jewry.

[Martín Zalacaín]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

This has been brought up before elsewhere, but.. what if you don't even know you have Jewish ancestors? These days many hardly know the names of their ancestors a couple of generations back. Going by common conception, about 90% of everyone not blond & blue eyed, or with some silly birth mark or whatever, in Sweden would have Walloon, Gypsy, or some other ridiculous ancestry (nothing wrong with Walloons, but that there was a mass immigration of Wallonians to Sweden is a myth).

To be more on topic; I think it's the knowledge or feeling of being part of Something Else/Better might be what causes separate loyalties. Genetics is of course nothing to disregard, but it's still about where your heart is.

I agree. There are examples, like the aforementioned Sven Hedin, that prove it.

But what I meant with my question is not wether jewish blood can affect your loyalty to your nation, but wether it can affect your intimate self, your values. What I associate with jewish (anti)values are those of the modern world: degeneration being the common link between them all. Nowadays, would someone with some jewish ancestry tend towards this (anti)values, or would he be able, hypothetically, to fully embrace european values (honour, valour, pride, love of nature and beauty, etc)? And Sven Hendin and the likes don't count here, because they weren't under this tidal wave known as postmodernity (or at least it was a small wave then).

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Gonzalvus

There's a question I always ask myself: Europeans with jewish ancestry still 'qualify' as europeans? Does it depend on how much jewish blood runs through their veins? What are your thoughts about europeans with jewish ancestors, like the great explorer Sven Hendin or SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich?

If those Israeli who have a small amount of non-jew European ancestry remain Jews, Theorically those europeans who have little amount of Jew ancestry would remain European.
Regarding Sven Hedin he said that he was 1/16th jew yet, I do not have the feeling that he considered him much of a Jew. Hence up to each European with little jew ancestry to reply