What makes a Jew a Jew (ethnic solidarity, etc)?

[Erik P]

I will start this post by making it clear than I am not an anti-semite. Germanic myself, I have come into contact with several Jews (under several different circumstances, don't ask why/how), some converts, some atheist, some religious, some agnostic. Almost all has been positive experiences. Still, I obviously recognize that Jews are over-represented in the economic elite of today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think prof. Kevin MacDonald claims Jews (during the diaspora?) has evolved a group psychology, an evolutionary strategy which comes into clear conflict with other ethnic groups. However, when did this evolve? In all Jewish groups, or only Ashkenazim? Does he claim the traits spread like a "meme" to Jews with other genetic makeups, such as converts, Ethiopan & Arab Jews, and other obscure people claiming ancestry from the Twelve Tribes?

How about antizionistic Jews? Antisemitic or self-hating Jews?

Please explain, and I might elaborate later

I might buy his books later, but I'm a bit short on $ at the moment

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

Please explain, and I might elaborate later

What is your opinion on the theory put forward by Prof. MacDonald?

[Sergius]

I think the group psychology theory makes sense, without having studied it thoroughly. In my opinion, any group of people that lives in exile (i.e. unwillingly, not as settlers) for a long time will evolve some of the same symptoms, such as paranoia and extreme clan-like behaviour. In the case of the Jewish people, a different (from Christian Europeans, for instance) sociological process takes place, as their morals and ethics were of a different nature.
Of course, the Chosen People, like any people with an ethno-centric religion, already had a strong ethnic and religious self-identity (prior to arriving in Europe, at least), and with time and living in exile, it only has a self-perpetuating effect.
Tell me if I'm making sense now.

edit: As for the anti-Zionist Jews, some of them, mostly fundamentalist Haredim, are anti-Zionist for purely religious reasons. Now, it would be controversial if I then said that all real Haredim are 'self-hating,' as they do not hide that they seek to inflict pain upon their own kind. They believe, as far as I know, that the Chosen People must live in exile and under oppressive pagan rule until the Messiah will institute peace on Earth, and return the People to Israel. Someone else correct me if I'm wrong here, please.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

some converts

Converts? In which sense? You mean, non-Jews who converted to Judaism.

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

How about antizionistic Jews? Antisemitic or self-hating Jews?

There is one remarkable thing about Jews and Judaism. First of all, we have here a total identification between religion and ethnicity. Secondly, the religion of Judaism has one very peculiar trait, which distinguishes it from Christianity (and from Islam as well): namely, there is no excommunication from Judaism. Once you are born into that religion/ethnicity, you are always going to stay member of that group, no matter what you do. You can (outwardly or sincerely) convert to another religion, you can hate Jews and Judaism, you may become Zionist or anti-Zionist, you can become even Antisemite (there were Jews-Antisemites in history), but in the eyes of the Jewry you always remain Jew and you can at any time be called to perform some role for the Jewish interests.

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by Plethon

First of all, we have here a total identification between religion and ethnicity. Secondly, the religion of Judaism has one very peculiar trait, which distinguishes it from Christianity (and from Islam as well): namely, there is no excommunication from Judaism.

Very true. They share both with a number of pagan tribe religions from Africa.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

How about antizionistic Jews? Antisemitic or self-hating Jews?

I think those labelled anti-Zionist or self-hating are Jews who differ on methods but not goals with other Jews.

As to the main question, I would say that Judaism is a group evolutionary strategy as Kevin MacDonald says. It may be nasty to say but I think Judaism more closely resembles the Mafia as presented in Hollywood movies than it does any religion.

[Erik P]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

I think the group psychology theory makes sense, without having studied it thoroughly. In my opinion, any group of people that lives in exile (i.e. unwillingly, not as settlers) for a long time will evolve some of the same symptoms, such as paranoia and extreme clan-like behaviour. In the case of the Jewish people, a different (from Christian Europeans, for instance) sociological process takes place, as their morals and ethics were of a different nature.
Of course, the Chosen People, like any people with an ethno-centric religion, already had a strong ethnic and religious self-identity (prior to arriving in Europe, at least), and with time and living in exile, it only has a self-perpetuating effect.

This might seem like a plausible theory, however, how does this really affect a Jew? Through ideology - the religion? Or genetically? What about people with Jewish ancestors, but not identifying as Jewish (some converted ancestors, inter-marriage, etc), or those who don't even know they have Jewish ancestors? Are they affected?

At some other forum an American nationalist did a DNA ancestry test and found out that he had Jewish ancestors (his ancestors were converted to Catholicism in Spain), researched more and confirmed it. Before that it seems he was quite antisemitic.

Originally Posted by Plethon

Converts? In which sense? You mean, non-Jews who converted to Judaism.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Plethon

There is one remarkable thing about Jews and Judaism. First of all, we have here a total identification between religion and ethnicity. Secondly, the religion of Judaism has one very peculiar trait, which distinguishes it from Christianity (and from Islam as well): namely, there is no excommunication from Judaism. Once you are born into that religion/ethnicity, you are always going to stay member of that group, no matter what you do. You can (outwardly or sincerely) convert to another religion, you can hate Jews and Judaism, you may become Zionist or anti-Zionist, you can become even Antisemite (there were Jews-Antisemites in history), but in the eyes of the Jewry you always remain Jew and you can at any time be called to perform some role for the Jewish interests.

If your mother is not Jewish, you are officially not considered a Jew. So in theory, your mother's father could be Jewish, as well as your own father, which makes you 3/4 Jew, but you're not officially a Jew.

In my opinion, the notion of ethnic solidarity etc is not something bad itself, quite the opposite. It's just when another ethnic group's interest collide with mine it becomes a problem.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

At some other forum an American nationalist did a DNA ancestry test and found out that he had Jewish ancestors (his ancestors were converted to Catholicism in Spain), researched more and confirmed it. Before that it seems he was quite antisemitic.

Can DNA tests really that accurate? I doubt they can say with such a level of accuracy a person has Jewish ancestry from the 15th Century.

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

If your mother is not Jewish, you are officially not considered a Jew. So in theory, your mother's father could be Jewish, as well as your own father, which makes you 3/4 Jew, but you're not officially a Jew.

I think in reality that person would be considered Jewish by his fellow Jews. His mother's background may make him ineligible to to be an orthodox rabbi I would guess.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

If your mother is not Jewish, you are officially not considered a Jew. So in theory, your mother's father could be Jewish, as well as your own father, which makes you 3/4 Jew, but you're not officially a Jew.

Yes, exactly. When I was referring to those born as Jews, I was referring precisely to those born by a Jewish mother, ie. only to the "official Jews," as you say.

[Sergius]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

This might seem like a plausible theory, however, how does this really affect a Jew? Through ideology - the religion? Or genetically?

I don't think genetics affect morality or ideology, no.
So I would say it affects them through their culture. It is taught and cultured, not inherited in blood.

[Marcus Marulus]

It is tradition transmitted from generation to generation.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

I don't think genetics affect morality or ideology, no.
So I would say it affects them through their culture. It is taught and cultured, not inherited in blood.

I agree. I'd add though that many Ashkenazim I've met seem to have character traits which remind me of Asperger syndrome , which is thought to have an inherited component.

Even so, I think the clannishness of Jews is a learnt behaviour.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Erik Puke

This might seem like a plausible theory, however, how does this really affect a Jew? Through ideology - the religion? Or genetically? What about people with Jewish ancestors, but not identifying as Jewish (some converted ancestors, inter-marriage, etc), or those who don't even know they have Jewish ancestors? Are they affected?

What about peoples of non Gentile ancestry who have been exposed for centuries to philosophies strongly influenced by Judaism? Ever thought about them?

At some other forum an American nationalist

What a contradiction..

did a DNA ancestry test and found out that he had Jewish ancestors (his ancestors were converted to Catholicism in Spain), researched more and confirmed it. Before that it seems he was quite antisemitic.

This guy's life is full of contradictions.

In my opinion, the notion of ethnic solidarity etc is not something bad itself, quite the opposite. It's just when another ethnic group's interest collide with mine it becomes a problem.

More than the mere collision with another ethnic group, the problem lies in abusing what you call ethnic solidarity (lobbying) in a host country and in a way detrimental and even hostile to the native people.

[Paleo]

Look up Khazar on the aether net...