The Identity Problem in Italy

[Dux]

I'm sorry, but I'll write in English. It's easier and will avoid misunderstandings.

I'm well aware of the difference between northern and southern Italy (and even inside these entities), and people should be able to choose their destinies. The same goes to Süd-Tirol for the sake of coherence.
Nevertheless I think that to build a nationalistic approach in northern Italy based in a Germanic archetype with referrals to Nordic religion is a little far-fetched. Anyway not my business, you're right.
I (and many) just happen to feel that Lega Nord is confuse in its pretensions. Most of the time, feels like their main goal is only to create an economical superpower to vie with UK, France and Germany.
One thing positive is its refusal to let masons adhere to the party.

Concerning flaming, the «Padanist» remark was not directed to your profile. Unlike your words, there's nothing personal in my words, let alone challenging pseudonyms (erroneously).

But yes, you're right. This is not my business at all.

[svin]

Don't N.Italian separatists view themselves as Celts not as Germanics? At least some people on this forum wrote so.

Breha, comment please.

[Menydh]

I have split the above two posts from the thread Tipologia dei Longobardi dall'Italia which is originally in Italian, so that it can be discussed here.

[Strengthandhonour]

I don't have a problem with the northerners wanting to preserve their regional cultural identity. In fact, I support this. My problem with the entire northern Italian identity issue is the fact that they believe just because they are northeners that they are straight descendants of germanics and celts. I don't deny the influence of the two groups in the north, but it's not as major as they make it seem. They also tend to see themselves as superior to the rest of the individuals who live south of them.
The legist leaders want indepence for financial reasons and they use the northern question as an excuse for it. It is obvious that its a wiser move for the north to be more industrialized than the south. It is closer to central Europe and there is a lot of resources. The current situation of the south can be explained clearly but I wont explain it again since I have explained it many times.
Every once in a while the Identity problem comes up. Lets hope everyone gets it out and we can move on since nothing ever gets solved..I barely even bother commenting on this issues anymore since it's always the SAME thing.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by svin

Don't N.Italian separatists view themselves as Celts not as Germanics? At least some people on this forum wrote so.

Breha, comment please.

Yes, Svin and Dux, the real ancestry is similar to Occitania, Southern France, especially with regard to the padanese language substratum, which has been identified by a professional linguist, professor Geoffrey Hull of Sidney University. The website in question expresses political views that are considered bizzarre by most padanists (actually they have an admiration for german efficiency, as it is for me personally, but they do not feel german at all). I guess the desire of being part of the asatru religion plays a part into the inflation of this part of our past that has left a relative cultural impact on our society. If we use butter instead of (or alongside with) oil when cooking it is not due to the longobards, it is an ancient celtic usage, also we are closer to Innsbruck than we are to Rome so we have other northern influxes. So it is for many other cultural traits, on which I will speak more amply tomorrow; Dux, do not worry, in any case a civilized discussion on the italian peculiarities is useful.

[Menydh]

There are several issues that are interesting to discuss. I will start with bringing in some of Breha's comments.

Originally Posted by Breha

[...] I don't feel neither a Langobard nor a Roman. As I've said ad nauseam, I feel closer to the French and the Occitans since those are our true origins, at least in which has prevailed. [...]

This is undoubtedly more realistic than the Odinist nutcase adscribing a Langobard origin to Northern Italy. Although I still see it little exact.

What you are obviously referring to is a Gallic or Gallo-Romance origin (depending on how far back in time we travel).

Indeed the ancient ethnology of Northern Italy points to a Celtic settlement in NW and NC Italy, together with a Ligurian element at least in the W and NW of Italy. So maybe we can speak of a Celto-Ligurian ancestral past in Western Italy. This Celto-Ligurian element stretched along Eastern Occitania (modern SE France) through the Valadas Occitanas (modern WNW Italy) until meeting the Celtiberian elements in Central Occitania. This is, needless to say, a very rought sketch. The Ligurian presence in W Italy and E Occitania is attested, as is the Iberian presence in Central Occitania. Although the stretches of each one (Ligurians to the west and Iberians to the east) are less clear and probably confused. Suffice to say that there are suspected Ligurian elements as far west as Spain.

Now, how this applies to NE Italy I'm not sure. But the Ligurian element seems to dilute the farther you move east. And this does not apply only to the Veneto but also to Lombardy. In other words, the Occitan connection appears limited to the very west of Northern Italy. I hope that it doesn't sound too bizarre to some if I say that there appears not to be one strong identity for the whole of Northern Italy.

Leaving this aside for a moment, let me move next to what I believe that it is the divide between Northern and Southern Italy.

The easiest and by far more popular way to indentify this divide is by thinking in geopolitical and geo-ethnic terms of North and South. However in the case of Italy this makes us miss much of the nature of the problem. Which is more of an East to West direction.

This is an issue that I find interesting because of how misleading it is. Basically, Southern Italians are closer to Greeks in their culture. Still the Magna Graecia in a way. What is less clear to me is how west are N. Italians and to how degree depending on the regions.

[kyashan]

I don't know where all this germanic thing spawned from: before browsing anthro-boards I had never heard of such thing regarding N.Italy.
I just did notice that the Northern League party promoted a celtic renaissance but usually in a folkloristic and unrehearsed way.
about the long time debated issue on phenotypical differences between north and south I basically agree with Coon: the north has a higher % of atlanto-meds while the south is more insular med. Southern regions have also berids and "a local approximation to an armenoid" type (this is the Coon's definition) which are not common among native people of the north.
the real radical difference is in social-economics and culture. Northern Italians are more mild-mannered, soft-spoken and respectful towards authority while the Southerners are more extroverted, loud-mouthed with a familistic attitude towards society.
I can say it's rather annoying for us northerners to be equated to some stereotypes about Italians supposedly lazy, non-professional at work, unorganised and connected to Mob. We are one of the most hard-working people in Europe and we haven't that familistic way of life which Mafia culture is rooted in (I'm not saying those stereotypes are true in regards of South Italy anyway)
On an ethno-linguistic viewpoint Northern Italian languages belong to the Rheto-Cisalpine family opposed to the Italo-tuscanian family in the rest of the country.
the economical differences are also worth mentioning but that would deserve a thread of its own.
the whole concepted of Padania is basically an invention but so is Italy, so I'd personally pick Padania over Italy because I consider the north (and on a lesser extent also central Italy) as my real 'heimat'.

[svin]

This is undoubtedly more realistic than the Odinist nutcase adscribing a Langobard origin to Northern Italy. Although I still see it little exact.

But didn't Langobards contributed to contemporary N.Italian genes? How big was their contribution? Afterall, 500.000 of Langobards is not very small number.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Why is everyone so obsessed with claiming Germnics as their ancestors???

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by prometheus

Why is everyone so obsessed with claiming Germnics as their ancestors???

Most of the padanists are not, simply we have a little but not meaningless asatru minority as well as some people who are still in love with the habsburg empire and Mitteleuropa. The latter are concentrated mostly in the Trentino region that was well ruled by the austrians, who were well accepted, unlike in Lombardy ad Veneto. Also,a s far as origins are concerned, venetians are more related to southern austrians and slovenians than we can think of, sure. In both cases northern italians share a non mediterranean ancestry, as of the central italy we have still a good mix of real latins and celtic tribes, as well as the first waves of mediterraneans. In the south things can vary also from region tor egion, Puglia is populated with some heavy strains of germanic settlers from medieval times and als early settlers who were similar to northern italians, just like in Abruzzo People from such regions often mingle very well with northern italians becoming often indistinguishable from the second generation.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by kyashan

I don't know where all this germanic thing spawned from: before browsing anthro-boards I had never heard of such thing regarding N.Italy.

I just did notice that the Northern League party promoted a celtic renaissance but usually in a folkloristic and unrehearsed way.

Sounds sort of like a New Age thing.

about the long time debated issue on phenotypical differences between north and south I basically agree with Coon: the north has a higher % of atlanto-meds while the south is more insular med. Southern regions have also berids and "a local approximation to an armenoid" type (this is the Coon's definition) which are not common among native people of the north.

I wonder about the percentages of Atlanto-Mediterraneans in the different regions of Northern Italy. Also, if it might not be the case of a trend towards Ponto-Mediterranean the farther you move East.

You should have also mentioned the Alpinid and Dinarid (a local approximation to Armenoid?) elements in the Northern regions.

the real radical difference is in social-economics and culture. Northern Italians are more mild-mannered, soft-spoken and respectful towards authority while the Southerners are more extroverted, loud-mouthed with a familistic attitude towards society.

In the 80s we had a fashion of Italian young males flooding the coastal areas of Spain during the Summer seasons. This left a negative print in the mind of Spaniards about Italians in general, which still endures today, because of their manners. Not far from the also negative print left by the English, although different in the details.

Now the easiest thing to think here would be to point to Southern Italians. But in my experience it was Southern and Northern Italians alike, only the levels of noise making the difference between the ones and the others.

I can say it's rather annoying for us northerners to be equated to some stereotypes about Italians supposedly lazy, non-professional at work, unorganised and connected to Mob. We are one of the most hard-working people in Europe and we haven't that familistic way of life which Mafia culture is rooted in (I'm not saying those stereotypes are true in regards of South Italy anyway)

Can you expand on that "familistic" way of life that you mention and which you link to "Mafia culture"? I'm not sure what you mean by it.

On an ethno-linguistic viewpoint Northern Italian languages belong to the Rheto-Cisalpine family opposed to the Italo-tuscanian family in the rest of the country.

That Rhaeto-Cisalpine terms doesn't sound familiar. Do you mean Rhaeto-Romance or Gallo-Romance, or both together?

What about the Siculo-Italian languages? Do they spread beyond Sicily and Malta into the mainland?

the economical differences are also worth mentioning but that would deserve a thread of its own.

As well as the historical details, especially that the union of Italy was pushed from the North and against the will of the South.

At any rate, it is worth noticing that Central Italy is always forgotten in this North vs South feuds.

the whole concepted of Padania is basically an invention but so is Italy, so I'd personally pick Padania over Italy because I consider the north (and on a lesser extent also central Italy) as my real 'heimat'.

Strange. I would have said that you were a Southern Italian. At some point I thought that you might be of Southern Italian origins but living in Northern Italy.

Originally Posted by svin

But didn't Langobards contributed to contemporary N.Italian genes?

Sure they did. Just like Ostrogoths contributed to the modern Central Italian gene pool (or the Normans to the Sicilian gene pool).

For historical reasons, the print of the Ostrogoths in Central Italy is quite unpopular there unlike that of the Visigoths (and remnants of Ostrogoths) and the Suabians in Spain.

How big was their contribution? Afterall, 500.000 of Langobards is not very small number.

Where did you get that figure from? I don't think that it was half as many.

[svin]

Where did you get that figure from? I don't think that it was half as many.

Somewhere from the net, not from very reliable sources.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by prometheus

Why is everyone so obsessed with claiming Germnics as their ancestors???

The voice of reason!

I've even seen some Slovenians claming we're Germanics. :o

[Menydh]

Language maps in Italy, for comparisons

Languages in Iron Age Italy, 6th century BC




Modern languages and dialects in Italy



(see attachments for bigger pictures)