The Identity Problem in Italy

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

In my opinion, the game of victimization of Northern Italians and demonization of Southern Italians is far from being honest, at least historically speaking.

Victimization? let's say that if the northern conquest of the south was an aggression (true), the south has been able to syphon back resources aplenty, repaying any debt many times.

Moreover, northern italian aggression was the result of a movement started by elites who were mostly atheistic, freemasonic and deeply disconnected with most of the northern populace, which was deeply catholic and longed just for the ousting of the austrians but mostly wanted the return of old autoctonous powers (most notably the genoese and the venetian republic).

On the other hand the bizantine way of the southern ruling classes and the world renowned demagoguery and dishonesty of most of the southern politicians is not a product of some evil conspiration by the northerners.

We didn't invent mafia, even if for sure garibaldi and the freemasons exploited it: it was there already, as it was there a ruthless ruling class of landlords which treated the masses as half slaves.

Conversely, the north already from the early medieval age had developed the free minicipality experience, in such town states anybody was free and could rise to good economic positions by his work and ingenuity: in the 19th century, southerners were subjects, northerners were citizens, despite all the old spirit of teh free municipalities had never died.

It was such spirit that animated many opponents to the austrian empire, seen as another version of the old german empire against wich the Comuni had revolted with the first Northern league of the 12th century.

After unification the south was able to bring its byzantine politics into national parliament, turning it into the world renowned mess it is today.

Millions were poured into various assistance agency coffins to no avail, the south never advanced: too much mafia and corruption by politicians practicing shamelessly exchange vote, when not recurring to open intimidation by their mafioso hacks to have it their way.

Surely the south had a brain drain because of emigration, but it is often forgotten that it was the also the north that provided most of the italian immigrants to Argentina: we had our drain too.

And most southern brain drain happened because the smartest people who didnd't want to corrupt themselves with such political system had to go away to achieve honestly some success in life.

If you just knew the impressive figure of the financial inequalities that are imposed upon the north you would gladly change your mind.

How is that the same university course from a state faculty will cost 1500 euros in the north and 400 in the south? Such inequalities are openly sought by southern politicians purportedly to equalize "disparities": but average pays are more or less the same for people who are not self employed across Italy: a worker gets the same everywhere, more or less.

So a factory worker in Ni will have to deal with triple costs to send his kin to University with respect to a southern worker.

Or you should ask yourself why on average southern health care agencies cost twice to the state and provide half of the services as their Nitalians counterparts: so most of the worst cases of sickness in the south end up being treated in Nitalian hospitals, with further fiscal injustice.

Southern hospitals are mostly staffed by physicians with good mafia ties, recently in Calabria an horrendous tangle of mafia interest produced an excellent dead (top health care agency boss) and even the wife of this mafia assassinated, a physician also employed at high level in the public health care system, is also being investigated. As a mafioso leader ..

So why should be called whiners? because we can't finish necessary road infrastructure because our money is rained where it is not necessary? our road system is collapsed but money goes to Rome and we get back a fraction of our taxes. Tax evasion in Italy? One third in the North and two third in the South.

Where people simply do not mind building houses according to (costly) european norms, where towns refuse to build garbage dumps (garbage must be transported in our modern incinerating structures, with serious aggravation of costs for the state finances).

Where our nuclear wast was refused on the ground that "any region must care for its own problems" (words of a southern regional leader) ; Yes, when we ask for help, the South sends us packing, when we want to keep the money we make, we are racists.

Pity that the southern town that refused the nuclear waste had a safe former salt mine to host it, now instead the waste is in the open air before a bent of the Po river: in case of flood, it is nuclear disaster here.

We have plenty of reasons to split, really.

[Langbarte]

About the movements of Germanic populations in northern Italy, It’s enough reading how much it happened at the time of emperor Mark Aurelio or the case of Tifali and about the Gots which Ammiano Marcellino talks about in his Historiae (XXXI). For a more recent bibliography “Die ersten Deutschen” of S.Fischer-Fabian or “Men without earth and earth without men in ancient Italy”( Uomini senza terra e terra senza uomini nell'Italia antica) of L. Cracco Ruggini in “notebooks of rural sociology 3” [1962]) (quaderni di sociologia rurale).

The inhabitants of the north have all the right to think them as Longobards because this people (and the other Germanic tribes that had abandoned their name in order to call them “Longobards”) had populated the north mixing them with the Gallics already present on the territory. Obviously we are not totally Longobards neither we are totally Celts, but we are Celtic-Germans or “Teutons” (if we consider this term referring to the European populations that in the Middle Ages had both the bloods).

It’s true, the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid races are divided in many sub-races, in fact the Mediterranean sub-race is present in central-southern Italy, northern in Africa and in Middle East.

The Longobards didn’t maintain their language, but with it they modified the Latin giving life to the Italian language (Iit born in Tuscany and after centuries it was used in the rest of the peninsula) and modifing the local speeches and then it originated the languages of the north like the Piemontese, defined a Gallic-romance language. I point out that also the modern German language has a lot from Latin but not for that the Germans are Roman descendants.

The surname of the natives of the north have in many cases Germanic origins (in ex. Alighieri from Aigler), therefore as Germanic and Celtic are the lineaments.

Some theories on the different ethnicity (or sub-races if we want therefore to call them) in “Die Germanen und die Renaissance in Italien” of Ludwig Woltmann or “Italians of the north and Italians of the south” (Italiani del nord e italiani del sud )of the sicialian Alfredo Niceforo.

The south, in particular Abruzzi and Puglia, has endured a large Albanian migration as it can be seen also from the minority languages.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Langbarte

About the movements of Germanic populations in northern Italy, It’s enough reading how much it happened at the time of emperor Mark Aurelio or the case of Tifali and about the Gots which Ammiano Marcellino talks about in his Historiae (XXXI). For a more recent bibliography “Die ersten Deutschen” of S.Fischer-Fabian or “Men without earth and earth without men in ancient Italy”( Uomini senza terra e terra senza uomini nell'Italia antica) of L. Cracco Ruggini in “notebooks of rural sociology 3” [1962]) (quaderni di sociologia rurale).

The inhabitants of the north have all the right to think them as Longobards because this people (and the other Germanic tribes that had abandoned their name in order to call them “Longobards”) had populated the north mixing them with the Gallics already present on the territory. Obviously we are not totally Longobards neither we are totally Celts, but we are Celtic-Germans or “Teutons” (if we consider this term referring to the European populations that in the Middle Ages had both the bloods).

It’s true, the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid races are divided in many sub-races, in fact the Mediterranean sub-race is present in central-southern Italy, northern in Africa and in Middle East.

The Longobards didn’t maintain their language, but with it they modified the Latin giving life to the Italian language (Iit born in Tuscany and after centuries it was used in the rest of the peninsula) and modifing the local speeches and then it originated the languages of the north like the Piemontese, defined a Gallic-romance language. I point out that also the modern German language has a lot from Latin but not for that the Germans are Roman descendants.

The surname of the natives of the north have in many cases Germanic origins (in ex. Alighieri from Aigler), therefore as Germanic and Celtic are the lineaments.

Some theories on the different ethnicity (or sub-races if we want therefore to call them) in “Die Germanen und die Renaissance in Italien” of Ludwig Woltmann or “Italians of the north and Italians of the south” (Italiani del nord e italiani del sud )of the sicialian Alfredo Niceforo.

The south, in particular Abruzzi and Puglia, has endured a large Albanian migration as it can be seen also from the minority languages.

ciamem en priat, se ta podet

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Langbarte

...The Longobards didn’t maintain their language, but with it they modified the Latin giving life to the Italian language (Iit born in Tuscany and after centuries it was used in the rest of the peninsula) and modifing the local speeches and then it originated the languages of the north like the Piemontese, defined a Gallic-romance language...

Latin superstratum I guess.

...I point out that also the modern German language has a lot from Latin but not for that the Germans are Roman descendants...

I have studied some German - I like this language btw - and I wouldn't say it has much Latin . The example would be better with English language instead.

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Langbarte

It’s true, the Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid races are divided in many sub-races, in fact the Mediterranean sub-race is present in central-southern Italy, northern in Africa and in Middle East.

The Longobards didn’t maintain their language, but with it they modified the Latin giving life to the Italian language (Iit born in Tuscany and after centuries it was used in the rest of the peninsula) and modifing the local speeches and then it originated the languages of the north like the Piemontese, defined a Gallic-romance language. I point out that also the modern German language has a lot from Latin but not for that the Germans are Roman descendants.

The surname of the natives of the north have in many cases Germanic origins (in ex. Alighieri from Aigler), therefore as Germanic and Celtic are the lineaments.

Some theories on the different ethnicity (or sub-races if we want therefore to call them) in “Die Germanen und die Renaissance in Italien” of Ludwig Woltmann or “Italians of the north and Italians of the south” (Italiani del nord e italiani del sud )of the sicialian Alfredo Niceforo.

The south, in particular Abruzzi and Puglia, has endured a large Albanian migration as it can be seen also from the minority languages.

northern italians don't speak a germanic language and don't participate in germanic culture, for that makes them by definition nongermanic. there isn't really much more to say on the matter. but when you drag woltmann into a debate you lose all credibility i hope you will consider that. what often goes with the separation struggle you seem part of is the aspersion and denigration of southern italians, together with an idea of supremacy, i want to make clear from this point on, the staff of stirpes will not be tolerating any ideologies along those lines

[Nerthus]

Germanic is an ethnocultural and linguistic term, I hope you know the presence of Germanic tribes has been historically in many places in Europe, but that doesn't necessarily make them Germanic. I've yet to hear Sicilians claiming Germanicness.

[Breogan]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

Germanic is an ethnocultural and linguistic term, I hope you know the presence of Germanic tribes has been historically in many places in Europe, but that doesn't necessarily make them Germanic. I've yet to hear Sicilians claiming Germanicness.

Yeah, everybody wants to be Germanic...

...this is because you are so cool

It would be great creating a post -definitely- and exposing the origin of this germanic-wannabism. When did it begin, a historical research, etc.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Langbarte

in fact the Mediterranean sub-race is present in central-southern Italy, northern in Africa and in Middle East.

There are Mediterranids virtually everywhere in Western and Southern Europe, from the British Isles and France to Sicily or Greece. And of course many of them in Northern Italy. Your comments are quite biased.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

northern italians don't speak a germanic language and don't participate in germanic culture, for that makes them by definition nongermanic. there isn't really much more to say on the matter. but when you drag woltmann into a debate you lose all credibility i hope you will consider that. what often goes with the separation struggle you seem part of is the aspersion and denigration of southern italians, together with an idea of supremacy, i want to make clear from this point on, the staff of stirpes will not be tolerating any ideologies along those lines

There is not an idea of supremacy even in the bizzarre theories of the Nitalians who refer to the longobard heritage.

There is just a quest for identity that would be easily fulfilled by studying history, linguistics and anthropology a bit better.

We belong to the romance language area, we are partly gallo roman in the West, partly venetic - celtic - roman in the east, where the boundary with the slavic peoples melts at times.

We have just too few germanic words in our language to speak of a real germanization: not to mention the fact that most of our identity struggle in the medieval period was against the german emperor.


We take pride into the victories against the imperial troops of Friederick.


We simply feel that we are trapped inside a natin that is not ours again, and there are very serious fianancial questions at stake (see my above post).

So the debate gets heated and on has an impression of suprematism being involved, when it is just the harsh dialectic of a desired political divorce.

Actually in the North many second generation immigrants from the South are involved politically with the Northern League.

Supremacism is not in our DNA, ethnic differentialism is our main political stance.

Sometimes young people attracted by odinism are forced to fashion themselevs as germanic, while they should direct their research at our proven celtic roots.

Said that, we are not so different from the germans in that we have a real cult for work, even if we differ from them because we are more for mass production and less for quality production.

German overzealousness is not ours, our factories are often dirt, even if people work there with a substained rythm.

Most of northern italian independentists do not want to become again a german 8more exactly austrian) colony, simply we want to rule ourselves independently from Rome as well as from Vienna or Berlin.

Even if we consider german individuals as among the most desirable as businness or marriage partners.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Aeternitas

Germanic is an ethnocultural and linguistic term, I hope you know the presence of Germanic tribes has been historically in many places in Europe, but that doesn't necessarily make them Germanic. I've yet to hear Sicilians claiming Germanicness.

genetic probes have shown that in certain areas they have more or less the same quantity of germanic blood we have.

For the rest, they are greek , italics and middle easterners, we are gallo roman.

Some cultural traits are present in the north but they are most likely pre-longbard and celtic (butter for cooking, germanic vowels who are also french etc).

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Breogan

Yeah, everybody wants to be Germanic...

...this is because you are so cool

It would be great creating a post -definitely- and exposing the origin of this germanic-wannabism. When did it begin, a historical research, etc.

because for the last 150 years they were the most technologically advanced people of Europe, and the best fighters.

They were won by immense coalitions of enemies, had they dealt with just one power a time they would have swallowed easily Europe.

[Breydel]

Originally Posted by Breha

genetic probes have shown that in certain areas they have more or less the same quantity of germanic blood we have.

For the rest, they are greek , italics and middle easterners, we are gallo roman.

middle easterners?

There is not an idea of supremacy even in the bizzarre theories of the Nitalians who refer to the longobard heritage.

i doubt it

There is just a quest for identity that would be easily fulfilled by studying history, linguistics and anthropology a bit better.

referring to me?

Supremacism is not in our DNA, ethnic differentialism is our main political stance.

Sometimes young people attracted by odinism are forced to fashion themselevs as germanic, while they should direct their research at our proven celtic roots.

Said that, we are not so different from the germans in that we have a real cult for work, even if we differ from them because we are more for mass production and less for quality production.

German overzealousness is not ours, our factories are often dirt, even if people work there with a substained rythm.

Most of northern italian independentists do not want to become again a german 8more exactly austrian) colony, simply we want to rule ourselves independently from Rome as well as from Vienna or Berlin.

Even if we consider german individuals as among the most desirable as businness or marriage partners.

you should grow up, its about an understanding to process complex sociological realities

They were won by immense coalitions of enemies, had they dealt with just one power a time they would have swallowed easily Europe.

of whom are you speaking?

because for the last 150 years they were the most technologically advanced people of Europe, and the best fighters.

incorrect, its in places aswell geographically as historical where subtypes and ethnicities absorbed into one another that civilization blossomed. scandinavians didn't contribute shit to europe and yet they are the subject of deification and fantasy by a large amount of the movement you're part of