Islam enemy or a potentional ally?

[Prinz Eugen]

The days of the modest nationalists Arabs are gone long ago.There is no problem to Europeans to have an alliance with Arabs nationalists like Naser and movements like Baath!But now the resistance of the Arabic world is at the hands of religious fanatics like Al Qaeda who hate equaly jews and Europeans!
An Arab nationalist want to liberate his country from jews but an ialamist want to establish a pax islamica at the place of pax judaica!

[Perun]

Islam is definately an enemy to Europe. It always has been, as any causal glance through history shows. Just remember Charles Martel, the Crusades, the sacking of Constantipole, the Siege of Vienna, the Reconquista. And a host of other events.

European ideals have no place in Islamic thought and vice versa. For example, the very notion of a nation-state(which is a vital element in European thinking) is not known in Islam, in fact Islam directly calls for the destruction of nation-states. So just as nationalists(European or not) we should oppose Islam!

On another note, it may interest some(especially staunch Pan-Europeanists) that many of the early calls for European unity were founded on the basis of protecting European civilization(founded on Christendom) from the Muslim threat. Ive been reading about this recently, quite interesting. So Islam has almost always served as Europe's existential enemy, there was never a time(untill very recently) when Islam was seriously considered having a role in shaping Europe's heritage.

[Arjuna Durden]

Originally Posted by Prinz Eugen

The days of the modest nationalists Arabs are gone long ago.There is no problem to Europeans to have an alliance with Arabs nationalists like Naser and movements like Baath!But now the resistance of the Arabic world is at the hands of religious fanatics like Al Qaeda who hate equaly jews and Europeans!
An Arab nationalist want to liberate his country from jews but an ialamist want to establish a pax islamica at the place of pax judaica!

Yes, that's a good point: guys like Nasser or Faisal were possible allies, but Islam today is another thing ...

As far as Islam does not make any difference between Americans and Europeans, nor between the European peoples and their governments, American imperialism is creating more and more enemies of Europe every day with its policies. And the problem is we are far more defenceless than the Americans towards Islam (borders, migration, military power ...)

What do you think of the latter interest of Gadaffi in having good ties with European politicians?

[Spartadux]

Islam is becoming an enemy although we are defending USA and Sionism and although we are included in the bankist and usurian system.
Now we have to define what is Islam, the moronic fondamentalist created "ad hoc" by English for defeating Osmanli with a subversive nationalism of the Arabs is a thing and it could be dangerous.
But this is not the islamic tradition and often those islamists are antitraditionals and similar to the puritans than not to the real and historical Islam.

A strong and unite Europe with a different policy from the US would be appreciated and liked by Islamic masses and can be more dynamic in the relationships with islamic world.

[Almost a Christian]

Islam for me in reality is practically ruined.....


....there's simply nothing to ally with even if one where to choose to so....


....with the exception of isolated enclaves such.....

as Palestine where even they're reeling under overwhelming Israeli suppression...


....ironically it is America & their sheer act of lunacy in invading

Iraq that is responsible for the sudden revival of Islamic vigour.....


...it won't last though.....


....September 11th & Madrid are the acts of a few isolated groups &
although quite dramatic there is no evidence they had a significant
terrorist apparatus backing them up....just a few sympathetic elements....


....the dying cries of a dying beast.....


...the danger is not one of the easily digestible "terror" variety
which is more of myth than reality...it remains the overwhelming but less
glamorous threat of, not so much Islamic, but general threat of mass immigration...


...whereas a terrorist threat creates an atmosphere of solidarity &
a healthy reaction on the part of the people....the mass immigration threat is
a more subtle, gradual infinitely more effective corrosive which is gradual eroding
European culture.....


....identify the latter threat....and your condemned as a racist......


.....a very effective corrosive indeed.......


....no one though wants to hear that the Islamic threat is in fact mythical.....


Commercialism has much the same effect, different only in terms of degree.....



...for my part I take no joy in the imminent extinction of Islam.....



...for there are some precepts that I admire such as the willingness to sacrifice
oneself for ones own beliefs....


....the history of the Crusades too did enormous credit to both sides, Islam then
being at the apex of culturally, politically & militarily....what valiant epics!



This admiration for Islam though is conditional of course to those who remain in
their own regions & not those who attempt "the quick fix" by immigrating to the West....


As has been repeatedly stated: ISLAM IS NOT EUROPEAN


I can also well understand the rage of the Islamic cleric who today see's either
his government held in bondage by American money or the advance of Western commercialism sweep away in a matter of a few decades a culture he has lived with for 1,000 of years....
...so let us put a stop to this mania of trying to "civilise" these people with "democracy"

...if they wish to parade about in a bed sheet then they have my full support!


Many of my conclusions comes from the insightful, concise & very rare in terms of

objectivity documentary called The Power of Nightmares which among other things postulates that the myth of Islamic terror was invented by the power that be (i.e the neocons in the states) to breed a climate of fear so that the population would divest more of their rights to their respective governments.....

[Marco Polo]

i suppose it would be pretty useless to ally with islam. In what way could they help us? Just because they aren't keen on jews does not make them an ally.

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

I know. Militant Islam is a huge problem and I promise you that just as soon as Tel Aviv goes up in a mushroom cloud, and the celebrations stop--I promise you that then I will take their very threat seriously.

[Timo]

Answering the question on title:

They already are my enemy. In they holy book the Koran, it says either kill the Heathen (meaning me) or convert him to islam or make him pay a tax on his existance. I am doing neither of the above. So they can kiss my Alpine behind and face the barrel of a StG 90.

[Spartadux]

I'm heathen too but i think that nowadays Islam must be defended because they are just reacting against the intrusion of globalizing and westerneizing world, not much.

And as a pagan i defend the right to be himself of all the peoples including islamic people.

If we rescue a strong identity the real Islam will cooperate with us economically and politically each in his respective area of vital space.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Spartadux

I'm heathen too but i think that nowadays Islam must be defended because they are just reacting against the intrusion of globalizing and westerneizing world, not much.

And as a pagan i defend the right to be himself of all the peoples including islamic people.

If we rescue a strong identity the real Islam will cooperate with us economically and politically each in his respective area of vital space.

No, that is a utopian view. They were trying to take over Europe from their beginning and even untill the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It took great men like Prinz Eugen and Charles Martel to defeat the invading molsem hords from taking over Europe. Finally they were driven from most of our lands, but their imprint is still left in the Balkans (for example) by the evidence of moslem inhabbitants. From the begining of Islam, they have thought of nothing but spreading Islam throughout the planet. They will not respect borders. In today's modern world, if they can't fight with armies they will fight with population and immigration to breed non-moslems from their own lands. How many moslems are now in Europe? We are at war, weather you see it or not. They are breeding Europeans from out from our own lands, and the egalitarians are in league with them. They are letting our lands be overrun by these vermin and non-europeans. And next, you will see Turkey become "European" by being welcomed into the "European" Union, thus just progressing the take over. Rather they fight us outright and convert us, or breed us out over centuries, they are at war with Europe and our peoples. An ally they are not nor can never be.

[Almost a Christian]

The Jews are swindling cynical cowards, notorious liars who seek only to exploit man....

Their sacred "value" is Caveat Emptor

I respect Islam as it teaches its adherents to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs.

But while it is a creed that has noble aspects to it it belongs only in the desert...it is completely alien to Europe & is totally incompatible to European civilisation..

Given that respect I still reserve the right in pursuing relentless & rigorous measures against them threatening the sanctity of our beautiful Europe..

(I still believe the main threat is not from terrorism but immigration as it acts as a strong corrosive dissolving indigenous culture)

A European nation..islamic..? Even the notion is quite ridiculous...

[Spartadux]

Maybe is not understood that i believe in an integration in strategic way of economy and politics with islamic world for a common battle and a duty of sustainement of freedom and self determination of the islamic peoples.

That doesn't mean that Europe should be islamic!Absolutely not!
Each one must be in is own vital space, but with a cooperation for resources and issues of common interests.

WE were allied with Japan in the II WW, does it mean that we had to become shinto or Buddhist?

[Menydh]

That is, Spartadux, because you are neglecting the obvious: Islam and Jihad go hand in hand.

[Spartadux]

i don't deny absolutely but i think also that Islam never thought to European culture as a waste bag to burn as maybe it's mood now in the brains of the demential islamic wahabiism. Islam has been much respectfull of european culture. Of course we have to be strong and clear with alien culture because i don't want islamization of Europe. The fact is that we can be respeced by other if we continue to be ourselves and sure of our origins.
But at the present time i don't think that militant islam has something against euroepan preservation, the problem is against neocolonial imperialism of USA and other capitalists subjects.

[Menydh]

If you mean in the past, Islam had produced very little of its own to be able to fully replace other cultures.

Point in case the Andalusi in Southern Spain which were a kind of their own among the peoples of the Islamic Empire, or the Persians which until today they remain distinctive to a point of the rest of the Islamic World.

However, Islam is destructive in its own nature and in fact it brought them to a halt. That they respected Western Christianity is a myth. See this discussion.

And again, for some reason you keep neglecting the hard fact of Islam being a religion which has as a goal its expansion through conquest. Not only it is a danger but one to take much into account.


And, by the way, I've seen various texts in German language here and on other general areas. Please, either look for their equivalents translated into English so that everyone can read them (or translate them yourself), or post them in the High German area. I'm moving them now.

[Perun]

Islam did successfully destroy the traditional culture in Egypt, and replaced the Coptic language(which derives from the language of Pharonic times) with Arbaic. The Coptic Church was the only institution that sought to preserve this heritage. Many Egyptologists admit that if one wants to find reminders of Pharonic times, go to a Coptic church.

[Perun]

Islam by its very nature is anti-nationalist. Ive shown this to be true plenty of times. The World-Empire is the basic Islamic political ideal on which the Caliphate was founded on.

Take the words of Islamic scholar Kalim Siddiqui:
"Today we come face to face with perhaps the greatest evil that stalks the modern world - that of nationalism....The path of the mmah and that of the Islamic movement within the mmah is blocked by nation-states. These nation-states are like huge boulders blown across our path by the ill wind of recent history. All nation-states that today occupy, enslave and exploit the lands, peoples, and resources of the mmah must of necessity be dismantled."
--cited in The Impact of Nationalism on the Muslim world pp. 1 and 4

The Islamic and European concepts of nationhood are completely incompatible.

"Christianity has of its nature been a shaper of nations, even nationalisms; Islam has not, being on the contrary quite profoundly anti-national.....Nations are not constructed by Islam but deconstructed. That is a fact of history but it is a fact dependent upon theology. Recognition of it should make it all the clearer that the construction of nations within the Christian world was not something independent of Christianity but, rather, something stimulated by the Christian attitude to both language and the state......Arab 'nationalism', like Turkish or Egyptian 'nationalism', dates only from the twenty years or so before the First World War, a time when the impact of European thinking was at its highest and most uncriticised point in the Middle East. It was essentially a western, Christian-rooted, concept quite foreign to Islam, one closely linked with secularisation - as also with the presence of a considerable native Arab-speaking Christian population, notably in Egypt and Palestine."
--Adrian Hastings the Construction of Nationhood pg. 187; 201;202

"[Islam] is in every way in principle far more politically universalist and excerises in consequence a religious restraint upon nationalism which Christianity has often failed to do. This does not, of course, mean that Muslim societies cannot develop into nations, only that their religion does not help them do so, directing them instead towards different social and political formations."
--inbid pg. 201

[etoile noir]

personally i do not believe that islam could ever be a potential ally.

when one looks at moslem immigrants - in any country, one notices that they cleave to their language, dress, ways of life and, most importantly, their religions. They maintain the cultural integrity of their communities. Islam is not only and narrowly concerned with theology, but also encompasses fundamental issues of loyalty and affinity.

countries like britain, which have been absorbing moslem immigrants since the 70's, have been arguing for decades that immigrant communities be allowed to retain every aspect of their indigenous culture. However even they now realise that this was a mistake and that there are many aspects of those indigenous cultures which are simply not compatible with the european way of life.

It has become patently obvious that islam is a socially conservative, if economically leftish belief system. Islam, even ‘proper’ islam, demands a distinctly illiberal social regimen.

and all this without going into the extremist side of islam .....