Is Paganism anti-Christian?

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Agreed again. A rare commodity indeed.

That's why I'm against Christianity if it's applied over unreasonable people.

You could view it as man excercising his will over nature, and thus a product of his creativity.
But removed from nature, nonetheless.

Not removed really, but more... ignorant. Man is still very ignorant about everything. Civilization is ignorant. Religion is ignorant. Science is ignorant ( but it strives for knowledge ).

It's a situation which can hardly be repaired. An ounce of respect more would do good I think.

Esotherics?

super-natural explanations. Relying on belief systems more than actual reality, opinions on things we cannot grasp, or cannot know ( such as after -death )

Of course, though most trees are cut down for human expansion and financial gain, rather than because of a religious system

Exactly. But the religion shapes the masses.
If billions of people believed that it's good to always have a good measure of everything, then, a lot less trees would be cut down.

True, as Chesterton suggested.

I think you do Chesterton a dis-service.
I think he did make a point, you tourself just expanded upon it above.
There is an amount of truth to it, it's really just looking at things from a different perspective.

Truth can be found in anything. The question is if this truth actually has a point. I see no point in Chesterton's nihilism-in-the-service-of-christianity

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

As far as philosophy is concerned, nihilists think deep but not deep enough. After all there is indeed no real value and sense behind things. Fire burns because it has to and life evolved because it turned out this way. If we don´t preserve ourselves it has the same effect on the big picture as if we wouldn´t. But after realizing this, man is free to follow his own will and invent his own values. That´s where nihilism fails.

Exactly!

[Timo]

I wish I had been so fortunate. I'm afraid my experiences have been more along the lines of the pagan who wrote the original post.

Well, that is probably because you are a christian and they were debating you, maybe they felt threatened and had to be aggressive. I the chats I experience are ones with mature adults of heathen (pagan) organizations that are actually serious about movements and getting foundations together to start something. They don't mention christians, because it is not on the chat agenda. Basically if we are left alone by christian, their is no need for hostility, as I see it.

Techincally, no.
To be Christian you would have to reject the rest of them. If you incorporate Christ into a pantheistic pantheon then you haven't become Christian. You've just developed a new heresy or a new pantheon,, depending on how you look at it.

I understand. But from my point of view, one accepting christ as son of the one god of christianity, one is christian of some form.

That's interesting. you actually believe in their literal existence?

I believe in the Gods literal existance, yes. Do they still exist? It is a question I don't know the answer too. Remember that the gods of my ancestors, the germanic gods, were mortal. They grew old, they could be killed, they were only kept young by eating the Apples from a sacred tree that the goddess Idunna had to gaurd.

If so then you are the first one I've met. It seems all the others I've met ultimately are athiest but use the imagery and names of old pagan gods to embody certain abstract concepts and attempt to make them feel more "at one" with their heritage somehow.

Then they are not really Ásatrúar.
Ása - old icelandic, meaning Gods, genitive form of Æsir
-trú - meaning faith, or belief

Ásatrú is faith in the gods, the Æsir, and Ásatrúar is a person who has faith in the Æsir.
They may be of different beliefs than I and totally going on their own paths. I don't know them, I don't judge anyway. They are many, many personal forms of heathenism/paganism and each is unique. It is more personal than say, and Organized religion with priests and rabbis, etc.

Does it go further for you into the realms of real paganism?

I don't know what is real paganism (personaly prefer heathenism to discribe myself). I think that I am a real heathen. Otherwise I would not call myself one, really. As for fundimentalism of the old beliefs, I don't take all of the literally. I must inject some science and leave room for speculation and just big question marks. I think that the ancient people were tried to explain the world around them with the tales of the gods and their legends, such as the creation story, as best they could with their limited knowledge and science. I like to think the 9 worlds in germanic belief (Alfheim, Midgard, Asgard, etc.) are the 9 planets of the solar system. It fits doesn't it? I like to think that Yggdrassil (the support and center of all worlds, literally goes through each one and they sit upon it) is the gravitational field of the Sun or the Sun itself.
At Ragnarök, it is said that Surtr and his kind (fire giants) will engulf the 9 worlds with flame and all will be destroyed eccept Yggdrassil. This sounds to me like a supernova or the sun dying at some point, no? Hehe, that is just a way I take the old stories and try to give them life and shape in todays modern world. I am not afriad to say, however, that I just don't know a lot of the answers to the big questions. Look to my post on: is Belief Necessary?

If you cannot make peace with Christ then I suppose that's fair enough.

I think that will be impossible, for I don't believe he was the son of god. I don't even believe in the god he is supposedly the son of, so it will be impossible for me to 'make peace' (I think we are talking of accepting him as Saviour, no?).

But it is important to at least respect the beliefs of others.

My father and family are still devout Lutherans. I have religious conversations with them all the time. Because we love each other we hug each other even if we get "spirited" in our arguments of theology. If I can respect my parent's beliefs, I can respect the rest of the worlds religious beliefs - even though I don't agree with them or believe in them myself.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Awar

Which all speaks in favour of my theory that modern "pagans" are
mostly post-traumatic Christians with a bone to pick.

Those aren't real pagans that I think. They cannot base a theology on hate of another theology. There are those out there like this, but I think they are the vocal minority of pagans. There is a silent majority of pagans, you just don't know about them because, well... they are silent.

[Graeme]

I understand religion but I don't really get it. I haven't a religious bone in my body. Pagans believe in some religions just not the proper ones. I ignore all religions. Christianity, Bahai, Islam, Buddha, Mithra, Zarathustra - it really is all the same to me. Christianity is practically dead to me, no matter how many millions are waiting for the second coming.

From my understanding, modern pagans are trying to go back to their roots. To celebrate Beltane and ensure fertility. There is a move to bring back the old Anglo-Saxon Gods like Wotan who have been submerged by Christian arrogance and prohibition. Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion transplanted to Europe and lacks meaning for many Europeans.

I accept that having no religious ability makes me unusual but I can accept others who get some meaning out of religions whether pagan or not provided that keep it to themselves. I guess I don't like anyone telling me the meaning of life. Even if it is 42.

[etoile noir]

Graeme, so does your total rejection of organised religions mean that you have no ethics? and if you do, what are they based on, if you don't mind my asking.

[Graeme]

Ethics as in morals, the distinction between right and wrong. It is something I don't think about. I would guess it is what we learn or absorb being with others, getting along with them and reducing possible disagreements. There are laws and rules which enforce certain accepted standards. Whether someone is Christian or pagan or accepts the Dreamtime spirits or the Rainbow serpent, that person still has to live and function with others in some sort of society even if they don't want to. That means accepting rules governing behaviour or rejecting them and receiving sanction. I have learnt that having an independent life without complications means not rocking the boat too much and accepting rules which mean nothing to me, but do not rob me of my freedom either. Every person has their own reasons and motives for their ethics. Some may base it on religion, others on humanism or personal beliefs. Each to their own.

[anaktas]

Originally Posted by Perun

Is Paganism Anti-Christian?

No. Christianity is anti-Pagan.

[Perun]

Originally Posted by anaktas

No. Christianity is anti-Pagan.

Read here:
Christianity and Paganism

[etoile noir]

Originally Posted by Graeme

Ethics as in morals, the distinction between right and wrong. It is something I don't think about. I would guess it is what we learn or absorb being with others, getting along with them and reducing possible disagreements. There are laws and rules which enforce certain accepted standards. Whether someone is Christian or pagan or accepts the Dreamtime spirits or the Rainbow serpent, that person still has to live and function with others in some sort of society even if they don't want to. That means accepting rules governing behaviour or rejecting them and receiving sanction. I have learnt that having an independent life without complications means not rocking the boat too much and accepting rules which mean nothing to me, but do not rob me of my freedom either. Every person has their own reasons and motives for their ethics. Some may base it on religion, others on humanism or personal beliefs. Each to their own.

thank you. perfectly understandable and logical.
and you spared going into some Aristotle and his nicomachean ethics, which, after reading and re-reading come to the same conclusion as your own really.

[Graeme]

Thank you for comparing me with Aristotle. Unfortunately I only read science books, science journals and science fiction. I do not have a classical education hence no Greek or Latin or understanding of the major philosophical works. Pythagoras yes, Aristotle no.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by etoile noir

Graeme, so does your total rejection of organised religions mean that you have no ethics? and if you do, what are they based on, if you don't mind my asking.

How do organized religions have a monopoly on ethics?

[Dienekes_Pontikos]

There are two forms of paganism. The original, traditional, ancient form was not anti-Christian, but rather pre-Christian. It did not define itself against Christianity, because it was a positive tradition of the ancient peoples of the world. The reconstructed, invented, mordern form, is anti-Christian, because it can no longer define itself as a tradition. While ancient paganism existed as a long-established fact in the life of the ancients, modern paganism is a novelty: it can only exist in dialectical opposition with tradition, i.e., with Christianity.

[Gil]

Wicca, Druidism, Odinism, etc, are just a mishmash of historical religions and modern day angst against the western society which has been (mostly) Christian for the past centuries.
The problem is that people associate paganism = cult of nature, and that is just wrong. Most "pagan" religions of the past didn't mind burning entire forests or killing animals.
It's all "new-age" to me. Some people might have a true belief in pagan gods/entities and that is fine by me, but they are no better or worse then Christians or Muslims or Buddhists.