Portuguese State-Nationalism vs Spanish Ethno-Nationalism

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Lusitan

No one will convince me that the peoples of the iberian peninsula form a circle of kinship that doesn't include other white peoples (if you include the basques).

I'll make Galaico's answer mine: you haven't presented any valid argument. Worse, I'll add that you confuse nation with state.

We could continue discussing this, but the truth is that people believe and defend what they want and reasons are just excuses.

We haven't even started discussing. The truth is that so far this has been a monologue since you've shown yourself unable to present a case.

I'm curious about other ethnic groups that you consider that exist

I'm curious about how on earth you say that you consider people "biologically" as far away from each other as Austrians and Bavarians, Prussians, Northern Germans, etc., as one nation (and who also have languages [which they call dialects] which differ enough from each other), and yet the inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, who are "biologically" as close to each other as it could get, not a nation.

State nationalism here approaches third world nationalism.

are the british an ethnic group as well?

First thing that you should know, since you pretend to speak as a nationalist, is that while there are conditions sine qua non for a nation to be and these conditions are common to all, to try to define a nation under the model of another nation is un-nationalistic and denotes a strong complex of inferiority.

But since you asked, I'll say that British is not an ethnic group.

Are bretons from Armorica peninsula and occitanians part of the french ethnicity?

Occitanians are a nation per se, under the dominion of the French State. And, for your information, there is not a one Occitan language but various different Occitan languages.

Are frisians and dutch in the same ethnicity?

Past the Rhine-Danube limes, my interest in such issues becomes purely anecdotic.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Lagun

I do not think that ethnicity is conected only to language. For instance, there are some Bearnes villiages that speak Basque but they are not Basque.

I ignored this fact. Care to expand on it?

I believe that Iberia/Hispania/Spain is a Metha-Ethnicity, not in terms of the Germanic community, but something much closer and homely, and that we the Basque are part of that group is a fact.

Certainly, I wouldn't compare Spain with something as subjective as is the Germanic community. Not even with the German nation which, by the way, in my opinion is more state-oriented while Spain is more nation-oriented. Let us not forget that the idea and the consecution of a German nation comes as a result of XIXth century Romanticism.

In contrast, the idea and the consecution of the Spanish nation dates back to the VIth century. However, there is a time before and a time after. The long process of the Reconquista forged much of the character of the Spanish peoples, though I would argue that in a direction influenced by the times of the gentilitas, prior to Roman conquest. However, this could be perceived as a divagation for the issue that entertains us here.

That some Basque independentist movements want to brake this fact, has nothing to do with the fact that we are part of Hispania [...]

Spain/Hispania/Iberia is a NATION, and we the Basque except for our last "horribilis" four decades, have been the most pasionate enhancers of this NATION.

That is a fact ignored by most people, sadly even in Spain of to-day. The Basques count with the most significative figures of Hispanicism, in the Traditionalist but also in the Liberal camps.

And it is significative that we can find a good number of Portuguese too.

To know that we are a Nation you just need to travel arround the world and compare our very slight differences inbetween us, vs. our "common spirit and background".

And it only takes the Spanish to meet in foreign lands and among foreign peoples, to make a common cause and an impenetrable bloc like no others.

And in your case, even after 1000 years of nationalistic estate propaganda in Portugal, you cannot avoid that a big porcentage of Portuguese people would be happy to join the rest of Spain in a sole estate. And yes, you could say that it is for economical reasons, but I would answer that in that case they would be happier to join Switzerland, but it seems that that is not the case. And do not understand me wrongly, I am not denying Portuguese singularities, but just putting them into context.

I've found that in Portugal, those with an inferiority complex the product of a clear ignorance, develope an irrational hostility against Spain, which they often confuse with Castille when they try to make a case.. in vain. However, those who I would identify as Portuguese, of the old stock, educated, patriotic and impeccable as were the old Portuguese, have a strong and clean conscience of their Hispanic identity. It is curious to observe how, without making any political statement, through his words you see how their Portuguese identity is perfectly and flawlessly conjugated with their feeling of belonging to a same nation of Spain.

The former belong to a class of pretended nationalism which is in fact what I define as chabacano (vulgar, coarse), in a way in line with jingoism.

[Lagun]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I ignored this fact. Care to expand on it?

.

Esquiule

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Esquiule
Eskiula


País Francia• RegiónAquitania• DepartamentoPirineos Atlánticos
• DistritoDistrito de Oloron-Sainte-Marie
• CantónCantón de Oloron-Sainte-Marie-Ouest• MancomunidadCommunauté de communes du Piémont OloronaisCódigo INSEE64217Ubicación43° 12’ 29’’ N 0° 42’ 34’’ O• Altitud198 m msnm
(mín.: 190 m, máx.: 661 m)Superficie28,58 km²Población500 hab. (1999)• Densidad17,49 hab./km²Gentilicion/dCódigo postal64400AlcaldeLaurent Chabalgoity
2001-2008

Esquiule en francés, Eskiula en euskera, es una localidad y comuna francesa situada en el departamento de Pirineos Atlánticos en la región de Aquitania.
Esquiule fue una comuna de Bearn durante el Antiguo Régimen, si bien se la incluye habitualmente en la lista de poblaciones de Sola, uno de los territorios históricos del País Vasco francés, al ser su población históricamente vascófona. No ha solicitado su ingreso en los Consejos del País Vasco francés.

Esquiule - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

[Menydh]

Apparently, here too: Aramits village pyrénéen de la vallée du Barétous

[Portugraal Luzo]

Greetings:
1º - Portu-Cale was born of the secession with the Galicia North, integrated in the Kingdom of Lion, is truth - We recognize this.
2º - We know however that Galicia is in itself a name that was born of a unique tribe in the estuary of the Douro - in who was today PORTO-GAIA, the heart of the Portuguese Territory. The CALLAÉCI (situated in Porto and Gaia) had extended its name at the time of territorial Roman organization to the next equal tribes its: Gróvios, Limios, Brácaros, Elenos, Brigantium etc. (North of Portugal and Galicia).
3º- Of the CALÉCI (in Porto, Gaia etc.) two names had been born: CALÉCIA (Galicia) and PORTU-CALE (Portugal).
4º- the Origin of the Galicia is therefore in heart of Portugal - Port-Calaeci. The LUSITANIA(in center, south etc.), for its side, is not a tribe but it was a set of tribes.
5º. - It was this Identity that, independent from 1128 and 1139. if extended for south, until the extreme of Algarve.
6.º- The Kingdom of Portugal was until the extreme south, but the Kingdom of the Algarve (Strait litoral band in the south) remained as "Kingdom" only in the nominal plan.
7º- In Portugal, the "Foros" or "Fueros" as in Spain do NOT ever exist . Portugal was ALL a Kingdom in itself until the south extreme in Miedle Ages and Morden ages. The Strait litoral Band in south(The unique nominally separate as "Kingdom of the Algarve") - the Algarve NEVER had any "Foros" - "Fueros". Portugal was alone a Kingdom always, and the "Foros" were exclusively directed for cities and villages - Cities and villages, from Minho to the Algarve - "Municipios".
8º- Either in the Ancient Tradition of the MIRACLE of Ourique that certifies the Teofania of the Founder who received Illumination from JESUS CHRIST (D. Afonso Henriques in Alentejo - 1139); either in the MIRACLE of Fátima in 1917, where the SAINT VIRGEN MARY if also relates "PORTUGAL", not it "Spain", "Spains" or "etnias", but in Nations - SHE spoke in "Nations", "Portugal" and "Russia".
8º - It is therefore a separate identity-Nation that it forged from North to south, with a proper language and the oldest borthers of the Europe(with an exception) - in West of Lusitain "Matria", very difernt in general(etnographic and geographic diferent of the most part of the Center of Meseta).
9º- Portugal does not need to return for "Spain", for the geographic Mátria "Hispânia-Iberia", because it always was here. It does not need to return where already it is. (the west is geographic different of Plateaus of the Meseta).
10º - Taste of Spain and all the Espanhas in general, I do not feel no feeling of inferiority in relation to Castile, or Lion, or Catalonia, under for the the opposite, I feel great admiration and esteem for the Espanhas, as Iberian that I am. By the way: Portugal, the First World-wide Empire in History in 4 Continents, cannot have no feeling of inferiority to who wants that it is(with respect for Spain who was the largest Empire in world in the final of XVI cent. and in XVII century etc.) - alone it has that to learn with who at this moment it presents greaters "indíces" of development, either Spain, Great-Britain, Germany etc.
Clarification: I don´t share in nothing racism in this fórum.
I am here only for clarifying that the Portuguese Nation is independent at 900 years without being against anyone(even having in account the attempts of unfication of crowns at some times). Before Being been, Portugal is NATION, línguístic and etnográfich - and with 900 years, in allegiance to its Heroes."Nation" is not a criation of XIX century.
In 1400, Fernão Lopes and Gomes Eanes de Azurara(Cronicles in Portugal) wrote about Portugal as a "Nation", not only a kingdom. Lisbon like the "Head"(Fernão Lopes). In XVI century Luis Vaz de Camões spoke about Peninsula in "Os Lusíadas" - "Hespanha", the head of Europe, but in same national Poem he wrotes about Portugal as "Patria" and "Nation"(both terms are in the Poem) and other Peninsular Peoples as "Foreigners".
So, we are brothers and friends of our Peninsular Neighbors, of course; and Portugal is a Nation, before anithing, and Independent against anyone (but in Peace and fraternity), after this, is Iberian, and after this is European.

[Menydh]

Hello. I hope that you don't mind if we stick to facts.

Originally Posted by Portugraal Luzo

Greetings:
1º - Portu-Cale was born of the secession with the Galicia North, integrated in the Kingdom of Lion, is truth - We recognize this.

Well, Henri de Bourgogne received those territories in dowry for his marriage with King Alfonso VI of Leon's daughter. If that's what you mean.

So that points to the birth of a state, not of a nation. More so when the nation's birth predates that event by some hundreds of years, through a complete ethnogenesis only disturbed later by the intrusion of Islam.

2º - We know however that Galicia is in itself a name that was born of a unique tribe in the estuary of the Douro

Who is 'we'?

As far as I know, Gallaeci was a generic denomination for the different tribes living between the Tagus river and the northern façade (and not even sure if that far north afield).

In any case, 2/3 or even 3/4 of Portugal are as unrelated to the Gallaeci as, say Cantabrians are.

- in who was today PORTO-GAIA

Portus Cale, you mean.

3º- Of the CALÉCI (in Porto, Gaia etc.) two names had been born: CALÉCIA (Galicia) and PORTU-CALE (Portugal).

I'm still at odds at what it has to do with the different sub-ethnicity of the Lusitanians.

4º- the Origin of the Galicia is therefore in heart of Portugal - Port-Calaeci.

So that means that it is occupied by the descedants of Lusitanians?

The LUSITANIA(in center, south etc.), for its side, is not a tribe but it was a set of tribes.

Like all other names, they referred to tribes, yes.

5º. - It was this Identity that, independent from 1128 and 1139. if extended for south, until the extreme of Algarve.

Which identity? You have named two different identities already: Gallaeci and Lusitani.

Never mind about others.

6.º- The Kingdom of Portugal was until the extreme south, but the Kingdom of the Algarve (Strait litoral band in the south) remained as "Kingdom" only in the nominal plan.

Yes, more or less that.

7º- In Portugal, the "Foros" or "Fueros" as in Spain do NOT ever exist . Portugal was ALL a Kingdom in itself until the south extreme in Miedle Ages and Morden ages.

You should consider the charters granted by King Alfonso VI of Leon, by which Henri de Bourgogne ruled as Count of Portu Cale.

8º- Either in the Ancient Tradition of the MIRACLE of Ourique that certifies the Teofania of the Founder who received Illumination from JESUS CHRIST (D. Afonso Henriques in Alentejo - 1139); either in the MIRACLE of Fátima in 1917, where the SAINT VIRGEN MARY if also relates "PORTUGAL", not it "Spain", "Spains" or "etnias", but in Nations - SHE spoke in "Nations", "Portugal" and "Russia".

Uh, alright.. I won't comment on that, if you don't mind.

[Menydh]

My apologies. I pressed the submit button too quick after point #8.

Originally Posted by Portugraal Luzo

9º- Portugal does not need to return for "Spain", for the geographic Mátria "Hispânia-Iberia", because it always was here. It does not need to return where already it is. (the west is geographic different of Plateaus of the Meseta).

For the mere reason of being a geographic location, nothing is a Matria.

Although the idea of Matria is one which I would gladly discuss with relation to the territories (Patrias?) of The Spains (Natio et Matria?).

10º - Taste of Spain and all the Espanhas in general, I do not feel no feeling of inferiority in relation to Castile, or Lion, or Catalonia, under for the the opposite, I feel great admiration and esteem for the Espanhas, as Iberian that I am.

We share that much, don't we?

By the way: Portugal, the First World-wide Empire in History in 4 Continents, cannot have no feeling of inferiority to who wants that it is (with respect for Spain who was the largest Empire in world in the final of XVI cent. and in XVII century etc.)

Actually, the largest was at the time when all of The Spains were reunited under the same crown for the first time since the fall of Toledo.

This thing about inferiority/superiority is stupid, really. I only find inferior people on an individual, one to one basis. As groups, I suppose that the idea is despicable. But that's all off-topic here.

Clarification: I don´t share in nothing racism in this fórum.

This forum is not racist.

I am here only for clarifying that the Portuguese Nation is independent at 900 years without being against anyone(even having in account the attempts of unfication of crowns at some times). Before Being been, Portugal is NATION, línguístic and etnográfich - and with 900 years, in allegiance to its Heroes.

You are, of course, entitled to your belief. However, there is a flaw in how you mean nation there.

"Nation" is not a criation of XIX century.

Agreed.

In 1400, Fernão Lopes and Gomes Eanes de Azurara(Cronicles in Portugal) wrote about Portugal as a "Nation", not only a kingdom. Lisbon like the "Head"(Fernão Lopes). In XVI century Luis Vaz de Camões spoke about Peninsula in "Os Lusíadas" - "Hespanha", the head of Europe, but in same national Poem he wrotes about Portugal as "Patria" and "Nation"(both terms are in the Poem) and other Peninsular Peoples as "Foreigners".

There is, certainly, some confusion there.

So, we are brothers and friends of our Peninsular Neighbors, of course;

Not for sharing some geographical location, though.

and Portugal is a Nation, before anithing, and Independent against anyone (but in Peace and fraternity), after this, is Iberian, and after this is European.

Let's leave it in that it is an Iberian (Spanish) State for now.

[Portugraal Luzo]

"I'm still at odds at what it has to do with the different sub-ethnicity of the Lusitanians."
The Calaéci was only one Tribe in the estuary of Durius. For North they were the Brácaros(Braga), the Limios(Lima) etc. And if we believe in Estraban in the Antiquity, or Archaeologists like Martins Sarmento in study of Castros(Guimarães-Braga) we will be vain who the root of these Tribes in the North was Luso-Celta.
"Which identity? You have named two different identities already: Gallaeci and Lusitani.

Never mind about others."
The Identity that if expanded for south in the Midle Ages was the Galaica, already relatively consolidated in the Two Counties in the west of Lion, in XI and XI centuries after CHRIST - Casting with the element Luso-Moçarábico, some Judaic and Berbere and some North Europeans People - it´s PORTUGAL, defined clearly.
For about 1400, Fernão Lopes "Cronista de D. João I" describes Portugal as Nation and the Castilians as foreign.
In "the Lusíadas", in XVI century, National Poem, Camões use the term "Pátria" as much, as many times, so, so many times: Sing I, Sing II, III etc. I think that in about all the 10 Cantos. Describing the Castillian Invasions in 1385 and the Long Battle (large Description in this "sing") - the Castilians and the Spanish in general are described as "Foreign" desiring the other people's one. In the remaining portion of the book, they(Castillians) are defined as "Friends" and praised by the Conquests in New World.
I SING III, Estrofe 18: Describing "Hespanha", "head of the Europe all", Camões describes it: "with DIFFERENT NATIONS "se engrandece"", describing its some "Nations": Castillians, Gipuzcuanos, Gallegos etc. and describing finally Portugal: "...This is the "ditosa Pátria" loved mine".

"Let's leave it in that it is an Iberian (Spanish) State for now."
call Portugal as "State" it´s a "insult", because it´s a NATION with a People and a diferent language(900 years) before it´s a "state" - more nation that many in Europe, and is not "Spanish" for sure(Spanish like we understand today(not Geographic). Even the Spirit is diferent.

And more important of individual opinions it´s the DIVINE PROVIDENCE in 1139 and 1917.

Thanks for your Response.

GOD ALMIGHTY Blesse our both Nation in Iberia.

[Portugraal Luzo]

GOD ALMIGHTY BLESSE our both Nations in Iberia.

[Mediterraneo]

Portugraal Luzo, aquí encontrarás otras conversaciones sobre el tema portugués:

Would Spain still exist if she was divided?

Portugal, realidad del patriotismo hispánico

Más que nada para no repetir lo mismo en 40 hilos diferentes.

Actualmente en la Península hay dos Estados que formarían una Nación (y aún faltarían más territorios entre ellos un mini-Estado para completarla totalmente).

[Galaico]

Portugraal, there was never anything such as Lusitan-Galician, and the Gallaeci were not more related to the Lusitani than to the Celtiberi, Vaccei, or others. After all, they were all Celticised (Celtic speaking) Iberian peoples.





Any Portuguese claim on Galicia is just ridiculous, even more when the Centralist Portuguese State denies the Galician identity in Northern Portugal.

[Portugraal Luzo]

Hello Galaico
Grateful for the Maps and Information. I know well these maps, one of them I have printed, all "exacted" or more or less uncertain, they based in old vacant sources. As I said, "Callaeci" was only one tribe in the estuary of the Durius, numerous and very famous in the weapons, that the Romans after capsize first to reach the Durius for the south - They were in the estuary of the Durius, from who that extended to its name for north(in Province organization). Famous Archaeologists speak for me, including some of the North of Portugal, as I cited, as the "Castros" that don´t differ in the North or in Beira(Portugal´s center), being little numerous in the south, obviously.

Midle Age reconquest: When I said that it is that identity that if extends for south in XI and XII centuries - already Galaica, only said that it was Galaica. He swims has to see with that I "claimes" Galicia. To have a next identity does not mean to complain it. Galicia Is Galicia, Portugal Is Portugal. I did not demand Galicia, nor Portugal demand the Galicia. Nothing wants "anexations".
The North of Portugal, saved necessary evolutions of centuries, is the same North of has 900 years ago. It was this North of Portugal that cut with the Galiza, that incorporated Lisbon and it made it what it is. The North continues and is the same. Nobody in Portugal denies no identity to the North. Go to ask to the Northern Portuguese which is its identity - it is they who had made it.
In this moment we have some Nations in Iberia, some of them made Spain, another is a separade State. In case of Union(theory) don´t makes a nation, because it´s impossible, in theory makes a Federation or Confederation of Nations.
On incomplete citations of Hispanic Traditionalistic authors on some Portuguese authors(incluinde Liberal and Republican) and of Classics as Camões(even incompleted cited), I do not go myself to pronounce. With the all respect that they deserve, we (Portuguese Forists) already answer in the "Hispanismo.org", either based in History and Historians, in Etnography and in the Portuguese Catolich Church and Religion or even Portuguese Heterodoxian traditions, we completely disassembled the arguments of such authors. It is to pass for these forums and to read. Compliments.
My Compliments for You and for Mynydd