"Gene study shows Spain's Jewish and Muslim ancestry"

[Wyrd]

The genetic signatures of people in Spain and Portugal provide new and explicit evidence of the mass conversions of Sephardic Jews and Muslims to Catholicism in the 15th and 16th centuries after Christian armies wrested Spain back from Muslim control, a team of geneticists reports.

Twenty percent of the population of the Iberian Peninsula has Sephardic Jewish ancestry and 11 percent have DNA reflecting Moorish ancestors, the geneticists have found. Historians have debated how many Jews converted and how many chose exile. "One wing grossly underestimates the number of conversions," said Jane Gerber, an expert on Sephardic history at the City University of New York.

The finding bears on two different views of Spanish history, said Dr. Jonathan Ray, a professor of Jewish studies at Georgetown University. One, proposed by the 20th-century historian Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz, holds that Spanish civilization is Catholic and other influences are foreign; the other sees Spain as having been enriched by drawing from all three of its historical cultures, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim.

The study, based on an analysis of Y chromosomes, was conducted by biologists led by Mark Jobling of the University of Leicester in England and Dr. Francesc Calafell of the Pompeu Fabra University in Barcelona. They developed a Y chromosome signature for Sephardic men by studying Sephardic Jewish communities in places where Jews migrated after being expelled from Spain in 1492 to 1496. They also characterized the Y chromosomes of the Arab and Berber army that invaded Spain in A.D. 711 from data on people living in Morocco and Western Sahara.

After a period of forbearance under the Arab Umayyad dynasty, Spain entered a period of religious intolerance, with its Muslim Berber dynasties forcing Christians and Jews to convert to Islam, and the victorious Christians then expelling Jews and Muslims or forcing them to convert. The new genetic study, reported online on Thursday in the American Journal of Human Genetics, indicates there was a high level of conversion among Jews.

Because most of the Y chromosome remains unchanged from father to son, the proportions of Sephardic and Moorish ancestry detected in the present population are probably the same as those just after the 1492 expulsions. A high proportion of people with Sephardic ancestry was to be expected, Ray said. "Jews formed a very large part of the urban population up until the great conversions," he said.

Ray raised the question of what the DNA evidence might mean personally. "If four generations on I have no knowledge of my genetic past, how does that affect my understanding of my own religious association?"

The issue is one that has confronted Calafell, an author of the study. His own Y chromosome may be of Sephardic ancestry — the test is not definitive for individuals — and his surname is from a town in Catalonia; Jews undergoing conversion often took surnames from place names. But he does not regard his Y chromosome as a strong link to the Sephardic heritage. Assuming no in-breeding, he would have had more than one million living ancestors in A.D. 1500. "My full ancestry is made of many different individuals, and my Y chromosome tells me just about one of them," he said.

Gene study shows Spain's Jewish and Muslim ancestry - International Herald Tribune

Sounds like jewish science to me.

[Susi]

I should try to find the actual study..

[Yago]

The full study is not available. Not even on paid subscription at the moment:
AJHG - The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

The conclusions are outrageously ridiculous, even for a political pro-multiculturalist agenda as in the case.

Firstly, they have arbitrarily interpreted the J2 haplogroup as Sephardic Jewish. This is in fact an East Mediterranean haplogroup which is present in high frequencies in the Southeastern European populations, as well as other Middle East like Jews and Lebanese.

As a matter of fact it is more common in Germany, and even more so in Austria, than it is in Iberia.

For the North African signature they have taken the E3b haplogroup, which does not necessarily point to a "Moorish" (or "Muslim") origin, but to the original population of Northern Africa, prior to mixing with Sub-Saharans.

Both haplogroups are of Neolithic origin in Europe.

Secondly, the percentages are not for the frequencies in the overall genetic pool of the population of Iberia, but they indicate an incidence over a 20% and an 11% of the population, respectively for haplogroups J2 and E3b.

Thirdly and most interesting, one of the Spanish media source that has published the article quotes Francesc Calafell as follows:

A print about to be erased

Compared to the interest for the study, the analysis of Calafell is surprising: "It is a field that is ending, because the questions that we could answer are already answered". An example: "If 3,000 years from today we search Andalusian genes among the Catalans, we will not find them because the differences are diluted over time". Is Calafell doubting of the validity of the ancestry tests? "They are fine for Americans, as we already know where we come from". And he concludes: "The future of genomics is in the biomedical applications".

Pblico.es*- Tres culturas en el ADN

If so, what does paleogenetics do?

I have attached a pdf file with the supplemental data for the study.

[Susi]

Thanks Menydh... As soon as it becomes available, i'll post it in this space (I have paid access to many journals >_>) It appears that AJHG hasn't published their latest volume yet..

[Yago]

Another interesting detail that escaped my attention earlier, is in the Herald Tribune article, which reads:

The finding bears on two different views of Spanish history, said Dr. Jonathan Ray, a professor of Jewish studies at Georgetown University. One, proposed by the 20th-century historian Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz, holds that Spanish civilization is Catholic and other influences are foreign; the other sees Spain as having been enriched by drawing from all three of its historical cultures, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim.

An opus magnum of this greatest Spanish Medievalist Historian, Prof. Sánchez Albornoz (the two volume España, un enigma histórico; first edition from 1957), was a magistral lecture where Sánchez Albornoz refuted the judaizing theses and the multiculturalist agenda that Historian Américo Castro had constructed in his work España en su historia.

The refutal was a smashing one after which Américo Castro's book didn't see any further editions, until a year or two ago.

This confrontation was part of a debate in Spain known as "The Being of Spain" (El Ser de España), which it then extended among the exiles of The Republic outside Spain (like Sánchez Albornoz and Américo Castro).

Worth to notice here is that "the side" that promotes this early multiculturalist idea of the "three cultures" is led by Américo Castro, who attempts to support his theses based on the fields of Literature and Culture, and which are deconstructed by Sánchez Albornoz with sound historical research and analyses.

Ever since then, the myth of the three cultures has been deconstructed by many other academics.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Menydh

Catholic, Jewish and Muslim

What about the gypsies?

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

What about the gypsies?

The gypsies are the Indo-European/Aryan influence in Spain

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Galaico

The gypsies are the Indo-European/Aryan influence in Spain

I know, the Aryan invasions.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

What about the gypsies?

Probably the biologists who visited the gypsy neighbourhood to take DNA samples got their test kits and all other equipment, as well as their van, stolen.

Such is life

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I know, the Aryan invasions.

Right. The Roma language is an Indo-Aryan one. If you notice the date (XVth century) you will realize that it is right at the end of the period that we are dealing with.

But there is an interesting fact that someone made me notice years ago. Segregation among the Germanics has nearly always and invariably followed written laws or decrees. Differently to it, among the Spaniards has nearly always and invariably grown naturally from society, without a need to put it down in writing. Except for the Roman Empire when Emperor Valentinian wrote the laws to prevent Barbarians from mixing with Roman citizens.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Menydh

Segregation among the Germanics has nearly always and invariably followed written laws or decrees.

Are you talking about all Germanics, or any specifical? Please use reference. And.. do you mean segregation between natives and non-natives?

[Wyrd]

This might be connected to it.

In Spain, unfavorable views of Jews climbed from 21 percent in 2005 to nearly one in two this year.
Denis MacShane on European Anti-Semitism | Newsweek International Edition | Newsweek.com

"There is no greater insult to a Germanic politician than to be accused of having Jewish blood," Haider proclaimed.

[Tuco]

Many of this genetic studies are actualy serving like a tool for all kinds of ideologies. Well I'm really sounding Captain Obvious here, but anyway... Most of multicultural lackeys of course won't bother to actualy try to think, nor are they experts on genetics, so they will just pick articles like this -- gene studies shows Spanish people have Jewish and Muslims ancestry -- you're all muslims and JEWS you filthy nationalists!!! No mather what your counter-arguments are, the answer will always be "SHUT UP. we're all ethnicaly/'racialy' mixed [links to some studies no one cares about]".

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Pirate

Many of this genetic studies are actualy serving like a tool for all kinds of ideologies. Well I'm really sounding Captain Obvious here, but anyway... Most of multicultural lackeys of course won't bother to actualy try to think, nor are they experts on genetics, so they will just pick articles like this -- gene studies shows Spanish people have Jewish and Muslims ancestry -- you're all muslims and JEWS you filthy nationalists!!! No mather what your counter-arguments are, the answer will always be "SHUT UP. we're all ethnicaly/'racialy' mixed [links to some studies no one cares about]".

The game is becoming really transparent, isn't it? I guess the less gullible among the general public will be feeling the hook.

[Germanicus]

The Iberian peninsula should except it's obvious Jewish ancestry along with the Moorish and move on.

[Agrippa]

Too bad the full text isn't available yet.

From what I can say this study is faulty because arguing with just 3 parental populations for Spain without recognising earlier Neolithic influences, which are present throughout Europe and dont have to point to any sort of Semitic, yet alone specifically Jewish heritage of a given population.
If the study doesnt go more into detail about why some, f.e. y-DNA J-haplogroup lineages should be considered "Sephardic", I'd say all of this is worthless and the preachy tone of the text is also suspicious.

And this comments from Dienekes go in the same direction:

The authors modeled the Iberian population as a 3-way mix with "Basque", "Sephardic", and "North African". The main thesis is that the fairly substantial "Sephardic" and "North African" components identified are evidence of substantial religious conversion of Jews and Muslims.

Choose your parental populations carefully, mix, shake, and get whatever result you please: Neolithic, Phoenician, Jewish, there's something for every taste.

Dienekes' Anthropology Blog: Major study of Iberian Y-chromosomes (Adams et al.)
There was a similar article in some newspapers about Germans claiming about 10 percent Jewish heritage in the German population by making up ridiculous connections between quite obviously Neolithic and "Jewish" lineages. I had a longer debate about this ridiculous statements on Thiazi, in which they divided the German population in "Vikings, Scythians, Phoenicians, Jews" etc. and those who came up with this "results" came from a private, mostly Jewish dominated, company which makes personal DNA-tests.

Now this study is for sure more serious than that, but it seems to be quite speculative and one sided from what I can say so far. Additionally Moorish doesnt have to mean half-Negroid obviously, if considering some Berber groups being actually very Europid by racial type, some even quite light by pigmentation, even depigmented. And at that time the Negroid influence should have been lower than it is now after all that years of mixture with slaves.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

If the study doesnt go more into detail about why some, f.e. y-DNA J-haplogroup lineages should be considered "Sephardic", I'd say all of this is worthless and the preachy tone of the text is also suspicious.

The only way I see that it could have any credibillity, is if they have identified specific subclades that are known from Jews and Moors.

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

The only way I see that it could have any credibillity, is if they have identified specific subclades that are known from Jews and Moors.

Exactly, with a very high resolution of the analysis and a very low probabiltiy for specific lineages, of J and K f.e., for coming to Europe before Medieval Times. In any case, this would mean a clear distinction between at least Neolithic and later, "Semitic" J lineages in particular and a comparison on a Europe wide scale.

[Lutiferre]

Even then, that of course does not add credibillity to, or verify their critical theory cultural deconstructionism.

[Galaico]

According to most historians the Jews and the non-Iberian Muslims made up 1% and 5% respectively of Al-Andalus' population, so the study is clearly presenting Neolithic influence as Jewish and "Muslim" (as if Muslim was an ethnic group...).

This can clearly be seen in the cases of Galicia and Asturias, which being Megalithic centres, have significant ME and North African Neolithic influence. The study points that influence to be Jewish and "Muslim", however these two regions were never under Islamic rule.

[Yago]

There are many other details in the study that are flawed. Ray and Calafell mention historical forced population migration of the Moriscos from Southern Iberia into Northern Iberia. I have never read such thing. I've been checking Expulsión y Diáspora de los Moriscos Españoles, by Dr. Gregorio Marañón, which includes texts from three other historians all of them members of the Royal Academy of History, and one professor of the University of Bordeaux, and there is no mentioning of any such resettlements.

Another detail is that they adscribe Southern Portugal a larger percentage of Marrano genetics than Northern Portugal. This is historically unattainable. When Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Aragon agreed on the marriage of their daughter with the son of King John of Portugal, a condition was that Jews were to be expelled from Portugal.

But it is known that a number of those Jews stayed in Northern Portugal, hiding from the expulsion, with the untold consent of the King of Portugal who feared a damage to the trade economy. However, most moved to The Netherlands and England, or to Turkey and N. Africa.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Additionally Moorish doesnt have to mean half-Negroid obviously, if considering some Berber groups being actually very Europid by racial type, some even quite light by pigmentation, even depigmented. And at that time the Negroid influence should have been lower than it is now after all that years of mixture with slaves.

And even if that was the case, the Moriscos were the descendents of the Muladis, the Spanish converts to Islam who made up the vast majority of the Muslim population of Al Andalus. Something which is also a known historical fact and which they have chosen to ignore.