The Genetic Strata of the Magna Graecia

[Lucas Corso]

This topic is a complete delirium, don't forget that the Moors imported a lot of blonde blue-eyed slavic slaves in their rules territories
And however the main genetic shape of Sicily was due to the ancient greeks...

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

And however the main genetic shape of Sicily was due to the ancient greeks...

Western Sicily was colonized by Carthaginians and Eastern Sicily was colonized by Greeks, that's a well-known history. But, according to recent genetic studies, modern Sicily's gene pool has a surprisingly low number of non-European sequences. That means that the indigenous people from the inner-country must have constantly repopulated the costal areas through ages, diluting the foreign element. Sicily is still a daughter of Ancient Greece, but not quite in a genetic way.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

Sicily is still a daughter of Ancient Greece, but not quite in a genetic way.

What defines genetically Greek?

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What defines genetically Greek?

To answer my own question, I believe that the common denominator here is the East Mediterranean element, and I also believe that this is defined by the J2 haplogroup. J2 reaches high frequencies in Southern Italy, especially in Sicily and Calabria, in Greece, in Turkey and in Lebanon (Phoenicians?).

[Galaico]

According to the study from Francalacci et Al. in 2003, the rate of haplogroups for Greece, Sicily and Calabria is as follows:

The common denominator for these Greek seafearers is probably J2, although we cannot exclude R1* (which would basically be R1b1c, and a bit of R1a1), but R1* will probably represent the pre-Neolithic native element in these three places.

Or perhaps the Greek influence in Southern Italy is even higher than what we were thinking of, and we should include both J2 and R1*, although it isn't likely, as Calabria and Sicily don't match with the high level of E3b found in Greece.

[Yago]

According to Francalacci et Al. (Peopling of Three Mediterranean Islands [Y-chromosome], 2003):

"[...] Approximately 60% of the Sicilian haplotypes are also prevalent in Southern Italy and Greece. Conversely, the Corsican sample had elevated levels of alternative haplotypes common in Northern Italy. Sardinia showed a haplotype ratio similar to that observed in Corsica, but with a remarkable difference in the presence of a lineage defined by marker M26, which approaches 35% in Sardinia but seems absent in Corsica.
[...] The Y-chromosome data are consistent with comparable mtDNA data at the RFLP haplogroup level of resolution, as well as linguistic and historic knowledge."

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

According to Francalacci et Al. (Peopling of Three Mediterranean Islands [Y-chromosome], 2003):

"[...] Approximately 60% of the Sicilian haplotypes are also prevalent in Southern Italy and Greece. Conversely, the Corsican sample had elevated levels of alternative haplotypes common in Northern Italy. Sardinia showed a haplotype ratio similar to that observed in Corsica, but with a remarkable difference in the presence of a lineage defined by marker M26, which approaches 35% in Sardinia but seems absent in Corsica."

Indeed, an important difference between Corsica and Sardinia. Sardinia has been largely populated since a very long time and tracking its immigration history is very complicated. We do know that Corsica has had quite substantial Etruscan settlements on its Tyrrhenian shore. I think that the genetical "common denominator" to Greece, the shores of Western Anatolia and Sicily has something to do with the first farmers settlements (the first European farmers settlement, in 6500 BC, was "Greek"). Later Greek expansion wouldn't have changed much the genetic map.

[Yago]

Don't quote me on this, but from what I've seen on other studies Corsica and Sardinia are genetically close to each other. If the Etruscan settlement left a print in Corsica (or in Sardinia), this could be observed through the frequencies of the Y-Chromosome haplogroup J2. I posted a genetica article on Etruscans:

http://forum.stirpes.net/genetics-hu...etruscans.html

Corsica and Sardinia I believe that they are a chapter apart. Other related East Mediterranean populations are Malta and Cyprus, and some frequencies can also be found in N. Africa (I assume in Tunis, in the area around ancient Carthage) and particular populations in S. Iberia (Phoenician trade colonies and later Carthaginean influence).

So far genetics look consistent with historical records and geographic patterns. Turkey and The Balkans also host significant shares of the J* macro-haplogroup. If this is J2 or another clade, I don't know. More difficult would be to explain how the frequencies of J* in France, Germany and Denmark are, according to the pies on this map, higher than in regions where we can find an historical explanation for it.

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Don't quote me on this...

I'm sorry, I will have to. It's your fault, if you don't want to be quoted then please don't post interesting stuff.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Corsica and Sardinia I believe that they are a chapter apart.

That's the least we can say. For Sardinia, we believe to know about the Shardana's migration (of Eastern-Mediterranean origin) but, beside of that...

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Turkey and The Balkans also host significant shares of the J* macro-haplogroup. If this is J2 or another clade, I don't know. More difficult would be to explain how the frequencies of J* in France, Germany and Denmark are, according to the pies on this map, higher than in regions where we can find an historical explanation for it.

I think it can again be explained by the first farmers settlements in the Western Mediterranean. Here is the route: First, the Mediterranean shores of France, after that the Rhône valley, the Rhine... I a few centuries you can have Eastern Mediterranean haplogroups reaching Northern Europe.

[Lucas Corso]

Just as a guideline for genetic studies: they relay heavy on statistical techniques for experimental data interpretation such as Principal Component Analysis, i'm quite an expert in this topic even if on environmental data sets and i can say that with the right manipulation you can demonstrate what do you want

[Yago]

Could you expand more on this and perhaps explain how you think that it could relate to this particular issue?

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

Just as a guideline for genetic studies: they relay heavy on statistical techniques for experimental data interpretation such as Principal Component Analysis, i'm quite an expert in this topic even if on environmental data sets and i can say that with the right manipulation you can demonstrate what do you want

I was suspecting a Hidden Turkish agenda behind the Etruscan Murlo genetic case for an example. That's why we should rely more on archeology and linguistic studies.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Lucas Corso

Just as a guideline for genetic studies: they relay heavy on statistical techniques for experimental data interpretation such as Principal Component Analysis, i'm quite an expert in this topic even if on environmental data sets and i can say that with the right manipulation you can demonstrate what do you want

I think phenotypes are just the most solid evidence we have.

Comparing faces is still safer than manipulating a matter, genetic, that is still at its very rough beginning state.

Behind genetic there are powerful financial interest, leading to the approximations of projects like the most trumpeted one by Craig venter, who has the scope to build a new, very profitable branch of the pharmaceutic industry.

If only our Lucas could write a complete article on this we would have given a nice contribution to the unveiling of the lies of our schools and medias.



There are also powerful political interests, who need to demonstrate that all human are equal and that it is only culture who shapes them, so giving legitimation the the powerful mass migrations of individuals from backward areas into developed ones.

[Lucas Corso]

Originally Posted by Breha

I think phenotypes are just the most solid evidence we have.

Comparing faces is still safer than manipulating a matter, genetic, that is still at its very rough beginning state.

Behind genetic there are powerful financial interest, leading to the approximations of projects like the most trumpeted one by Craig venter, who has the scope to build a new, very profitable branch of the pharmaceutic industry.

If only our Lucas could write a complete article on this we would have given a nice contribution to the unveiling of the lies of our schools and medias.



There are also powerful political interests, who need to demonstrate that all human are equal and that it is only culture who shapes them, so giving legitimation the the powerful mass migrations of individuals from backward areas into developed ones.

I'll be very happy to write such article, but you'll need to be a bit patient since unfortunately now i'm very busy with other articles
However i'm not an expert of genetics i just know the statistical tools used also in genetic data analysis: usually scientists haven't any interest in give a "political" shape in articles published in scientific magazines, usually the manipulations accur when scientifically-illiterated journalists read the abstract of the article and misunderstand (sometimes for purpose) everythink.
Genetic characterization is a most powerful tools but however it has to be used together with archeology, linguistics and especially the sample has to be rapresentative of the NATIVE population...
This is an example of good article:
Frequency of the HFE Gene Mutations in Five Italian Populations