I1a & I1b

[Heretik]

I stumbled upon this link RootsWeb: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-L RE: Oxford Ancestors Links and I can't find the answer to that guy's question in which I'm very interested. So I call upon local Stirpes' experts to help me by answering to the question in that mail.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by e-mail

Now, I have a question for experts that might be reading this: Is it possible that the division between I1a and I1b could reflect this parting of a large group of Goths from Scandinavia (a very long time ago), who then ended up in a refugium in the Balkans and became I1b through a local mutation there, whereas those who had stayed in Scandinavia spent the last ice age in Southern France/Northern Spain? After the ice age, the latter then went up to resettle Scandinavia and the later Germanic lands, whereas the I1b group in the Balkans stayed put in Eastern Europe.

Basically, it is pretty possible.
Only one thing;The mentioned people were not Goths, but men and women whose descendants will call themselves Goths(Scandinavia), and Illyrians(Balkans), several thousand years after.
This would also explain the frequency of haplogroup I1a in Germany and Denmark.

[Heretik]

You've got a point there...

But that basically would mean that illyrians are of northern descent...?

[Jacob Le Bin]

I think this haplogroup case is rather an "echo" of Mesolithic or maybe Neolithic,a remain of what happened much before the full formation of Germanic and Illyrian people.I don't really much believe in Historical mass-migrations.And even less in an area (the Balkans) that has been consistently populated even before the spread of agriculture.Interesting stuff anyway,worths to be explorated further.

[Heretik]

I'm waiting to get the full time internet () and I shall investigate.

Dispersion of haplotypes and haplogroups is a neverending source for investigation.

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Katera

Dispersion of haplotypes and haplogroups is a neverending source for investigation.

Yes,very convenient to the endless winter nights! The dispersion of haplotypes only tells us about a change that has occur,but not when or how,so we have all the latitude to elaborate theories.Shall we begin (or continue)?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Katera

But that basically would mean that illyrians are of northern descent...?

It depends on how you look at the situation. They all came from somewhere,to inhabit North, probably from East and South, and from the North they allegedly came to the Balkans.
But it's very hard to prove that due to sands of time.
Anyway, Illyrians were most probably genetically very heterogeneous, so I was referring to their I1b(P-37) branch.

[Kalevi]

This individual seems to be rather confused. There's no reason to put hg I in the Iberian refugium - where would R1b be put then? How about just leaving the Goths alone and keeping it simple: there's 3 haplogroups for 3 refugia.

[Heretik]

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

It depends on how you look at the situation. They all came from somewhere,to inhabit North, probably from East and South, and from the North they allegedly came to the Balkans.
But it's very hard to prove that due to sands of time.
Anyway, Illyrians were most probably genetically very heterogeneous, so I was referring to their I1b(P-37) branch.

Well, illyrians, bask and saami are thought to be the native people of europe... They came after the last ice age.
Or am I wrong?

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Katera

Well, illyrians, bask and saami are thought to be the native people of europe... They came after the last ice age.
Or am I wrong?

In fact,we do not know this.Basques nationalists are very good at claiming that they are the European natives.And that's a clever move,because skeletons don't talk and there is no way to prove them wrong (or right).About the Illyrians,I believe to know that they are related to the spread of the iron technology in central Europe.But it's possible that the word "Illyrian" is nothing more that a generic term to designate various peoples.

[Heretik]

Might be, might be... But everything we say might be true...

Hell! I want a time-machine!

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Katera

Might be, might be... But everything we say might be true...

Hell! I want a time-machine!

Yes,I can't wait the moment where it will be unveiled! A really helpfull invention,at last!But,through literature,haven't we invented it already?

[Heretik]

Don't know really...? Open a thread about it...

[Jacob Le Bin]

I plan to open an even more strange thread...A thread on the latest Etruscan studies.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

In fact,we do not know this.Basques nationalists are very good at claiming that they are the European natives.And that's a clever move,because skeletons don't talk and there is no way to prove them wrong (or right).

What are you suggesting? That the Basques are not older than the first humans in Europe?

[Heretik]

He's right! Croats are the oldest. Not just in Europe, not just the world but the whole universe... And beyond!

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

What are you suggesting? That the Basques are not older than the first humans in Europe?

Well,I don't know.Continuity in bone material is a thing,continuity in linguistic or cultural matters is another one.If about 80% of the European stock goes back to the UP,that makes the Basque stock only a stock between others. Same thing for the Croats!

[Heretik]

You are all actually Croats (Croatish), but you're still not aware of it.

[Jacob Le Bin]

Originally Posted by Katera

You are all actually Croats (Croatish), but you're still not aware of it.

Let's hope that's not true ...And if it's true,let's make sure that nobody's getting to know it!

[Heretik]

The truth is out there...