Indo-European Chronology - Countries and Peoples

[Faísca]

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/chronn.html

Highly Interesting.

[Ederico]

Thanks for the link Johannes.

[Nemesis]

Just one or two questions.
In the link presented we find:

2250 BC Achaeans come to Greece
2000 BC Doric Greek tribes settle in Illyria

Where on earth did they come from and based on what archeologic and anthropologic evidence do they come to this conclusion???

and then we see:

1200 BC Doric tribes invade Greece; soon they destroy the Mycenaean civilization

Where do they get this info???


I recall reading of a French scholar Bufarteng(sp?) that suggested, that since writing hadn't been yet invented we would expect that the historians of India and Hellas would have mentioned something in their later written history (at least the Hellines that had one) but not only are such records totally abcent in historic records but we find absolutely no mention in their myths and traditions of such people.

So we come to the conveniently invented Dorian invasion (according on who you quote you find a different date), totally ignoring the fact that NO historic text nor myth mention an invasion of Dorians but a Return of the Heracledes!!!

All texts speak of "KATHODOS" that clearly means "coming back, to return" and we know that the Herakledes were a Hellinic people decendants of Herakles that returned to their Dorian homeland in Peloponnese.
We also find Xenophon's work titled "KATHODOS TON MYRION" (sorry but don't know the latin or english title of this) that also gives the meaning of "return"

[Archangelos]

Nemesis

Ive read about the Dorian settling of Illyria before. I myself don't support the invasion theory. I believe we are native to the region and spread outward. I think this is backed by the Dorian settling of Illyria, and the Dorian return years later, but thats just my opinion.

[Gil]

Just a note:

In Spain first Indo-Europeans occupied mainly the northern regions. They did not mix with the aboriginal population, though their language was somehow transforming in phonetics and syntax. This first Celtic wave (first Celts were called beribraces in ancient sources) put the beginning to the Celtiberian language.

1 - First of all the celtic tribes occupied the north-western part and the central massive region. The north/north-east was already occupied by fiercely independent tribes.

2 - They did mix with the indigenous peoples, hence "celtiberians", which were not only a linguistic group but an ethnic too. Of course, there might have been places where the incidence of celtiberians was smaller and places where almost only iberians and celts lived, but overall the celts were settlers who wanted lands to live on, not sectarian independentists.

Also, this map, presented in the page:



Is compeltely delusional. The occurence of celts was not higher in Galicia/Galiza than in the rest of the northern/central areas, and the celtiberian influence was not limited to the central/eastern part but streched , as I already said, from the central massive to the west and east parts of the peninsula.

[Nemesis]

Archangelos

I'm with you 100%, there is too much proof to accept the fact that we are autochthonus and totally reject the IE invasion joke. A theory that was introduced by Brits during their occupation of India for one and only reason, so that the local population wouldn't see them as foreigners and so they could remain in power.

We know from ancient texts and myths that the Hellines always traveled, founded cities, influenced other civilizations as you so correctly mention. Yet they totally discredit these sources and attempt to present us with a different version of history.
I never really did understand why.

[Archangelos]

Nemesis

They do this because their nations do not have a noble beginning like ours. So they have created the 'Aryan' invasion myth to support their theories of their racial superiority over their colonies. Without their false 'Aryan' belief they can not support their claims as the leaders of Europe. A position, which is rightfully Hellenic.

[Nemesis]

Archangelos

Well, that is generally what I've came to understand.
When they were finally able to ackowledged the greatness of the Hellinic civilization they decided that they couldn't be inferior to the enslaved by the barbaric Ottomans, Hellines, so they came up with this ficticious story.

Just look who these people are, look at their traditions. When I start thinking about it it just makes me laugh.
Let's take the French for example. Unfamiliar to the term or action of bathing they invented perfume. If you visit the palace of Verssailes you can't even find one single toilet!!!
(makes me wonder where the King took a dump and who picked it up)

If we look at the Brits, we also find chaos.

The 12th-century Christian Gerald of Wales gave eyewitness accounts of many rituals.
Gerald recorded a ceremony which took place in the early 1200s, where a crowd gathered to watch one of the tribal leaders have sexual intercourse with a horse!!!, before killing it.
After he had bathed in the blood of the animal, it was butchered, cooked and eaten by the assembled people.

If we take everyone of these wanna-be noble nations we find similar examples.

Are these the very people that dare to claim "noble" decsent,?!?!

[Archangelos]

Nemesis,

You might be interested in the article im writing at the moment for my ideology. Its an article about how Haimos needs regional unity and shows who is to be blamed from our fall from grace. At the moment im writing a section titled, Fall of Byzantium, rise of Germanic Pretenders.

Do not get me wrong, i respect and love my fellow Indo-European people. They are my European brothers, even if they are misguided by false theories that i do not agree in. I have my own Racial theories, which for one included what you've mentioned, about we Hellenes being native to our surroundings. Which would mean an expansion throughout European and surrounding areas originating of the Haimos region, rather then it coming to Haimos.

This is why i have such a strong belief, that we shouldnt follow Foreign created political ideologies. Rather we should have one created for us, by us. Hence my drive to write my ideology, Enocism.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Archangelos

Just look who these people are, look at their traditions. When I start thinking about it it just makes me laugh.

Their traditions are not yours, it's why they are odds to you. Do not be so hasty to judge. The horse story is really really hard to believe.

Let's take the French for example. Unfamiliar to the term or action of bathing they invented perfume. If you visit the palace of Verssailes you can't even find one single toilet!!!
(makes me wonder where the King took a dump and who picked it up)

Wrong. That is a tall story, fairy tales. French used to take baths untill a certain period where science and religion interacted, it was believed at that time that bath could caused diseases due to the dilatation of the pores (of skin), because of the warm water disease was said to penetrate in the pores. Moreover, nudity was taboo in the 17-18th century area.

However, in the middle age French bathed, and in Paris f.e. the Roman baths were still in use in the high middle age.

Concerning the supposed lack of hygiene of the french at that time, I doubt that greeks in the same period were cleaners. Most of the people were peasants, they didn't waste their time to bath after their hard labour. I do not idealize, ancient greeks were cleans but I doubt that the common people was bathing everyday.

You're right, one can't find toilets in Versailles, that doesn't mean Louis the 14th and Louis the 16th made their necessities anywhere. Yes they put a lot of perfume. I can't say if it was specific to France at that time, I doubt it. Aristocrats, not only in France, used to perfume a lot. Btw Marie Antoinette (an austrian) installed a bathroom in her private appartements (yes, the 1st time bathroom in Versailles. I hope it makes you laugh).

One more thing, I don't believe that perfume is a french invention, plus it's not a specific french habit, is it? Don't greek girls perfume f.e.? Does it mean they don't bath? I don't think so.

If we take everyone of these wanna-be noble nations we find similar examples.

Do you want me to find urban legends on greek aristocrats and on greek people?

Are these the very people that dare to claim "noble" decsent,?!?!

I believe that your post is off-topic Nemesis.

It is not the right place to claim the superiority of european peoples on others.

It is the wrong place toinsult French or any other european peoples.

You should listen to what Archangelos said, love your european fellows but do not make with "northerners" what some retards do with "southerners".

Originally Posted by Archangelos

Do not get me wrong, i respect and love my fellow Indo-European people. They are my European brothers [...]

[Archangelos]

Nemesis

They are right, the topic is kinda going off topic alittle. If you'd like to continue discussing this, why not pm. So not to offend anyone on the forum.

[Nemesis]

Duchemin

Sorry if I offended you, which honestly was not my intention nor did I wish to present the cultural superiority that I strongly do believe in (but that is a different topic that will give me the racist title), at least not in these posts. If it did seem that way, I apologize.

From my post you most probably misjudged my intentions but please feel free to post your versions of "urban legends". Something I obviously did not, I clearly posted historic facts.
If that is offending towards you, please imagine what these conveniently invented 'invasions' are towards me and 'my people'.

No hard feelings I hope.


@Archangelos

PM and offend?

Who and why re aderfe (brother).
I believe that every fora is open to all ideas, beliefs and ideologies.
All I want or to be honest, I'm begging for someone to support this delusion of tsome alleged Dorian invasion.
I want their delusion against my/our facts.
(I might have probably provoked a bit more than I intended, so if anyone feels offended please accept my apologies)

[Carnyx]

Duchemin

Sorry if I offended you, which honestly was not my intention nor did I wish to present the cultural superiority that I strongly do believe in (but that is a different topic that will give me the racist title), at least not in these posts. If it did seem that way, I apologize.

No offense, I've just said what I've to (some details). Feel free to believe in the cultural superiority of Greece (everyone here has his own idea on the topic ). I do believe myself in the Greek roots of Europe and I do believe in the mighty French culture (he, he) without despising any other european culture for that. Call me an idealist, that's what I'm.

From my post you most probably misjudged my intentions but please feel free to post your versions of "urban legends". Something I obviously did not, I clearly posted historic facts.

I don't think I misjudged your intentions. Didn't you say that you believe in the cultural superiority of Greece? You've targeted France. Plus your comments on French were uncool Sir. There's a way to say the "truth".
The subject is closed.

If that is offending towards you, please imagine what these conveniently invented 'invasions' are towards me and 'my people'.

Nemesis, I've nothing against you, I do believe (or would like to believe) in the european brotherhood. You can, with Archangelos, discuss the so called "Dorian invasion" and this "myth" (if it is a myth), it's what this forum is made for. It interests me (highly).

No hard feelings I hope.

No, not all.

[Theobald]

Interesting, I also noticed some errors though.

1/"Frankish words in French now make only less than 1%."
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/...hron4.html#486

That's wrong, Germanic words now make about 15 % of Modern French language. The most important of Germanic groups for the history of the French language are - overwhelmingly - the Franks and to some extent the Burgondians. These Germanic-speaking groups had a profound effect on the Latin spoken in their respective regions, altering both the pronunciation and the syntax, and as I said it they also introduced a number of new words (including many terms and expressions associated with their social structure and military tactics). That's why there is a bigger difference between French language and Spanish-Portuguese-Italian languages than between Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. French language is special and unique because of/thanks to this Germanic influence.

As for "Hlodvig", I guess they are talking about Clovis. Has anyone ever heard this name ?

2/"Charles did not even have a capital"
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/...hron5.html#768

Aachen/Aix-la-Chapelle was his capital and the center of an intellectual renaissance (with a famous palace school under the leadership of Alcuin, a cathedral where German emperors were crowned during 600 years, ...) after Paris (capital under the Merovingians) lost its influence. Charlemagne's capital was even seen as a "new Athens" at that time and the Frankish emperor wanted to make it rivalize with Constantinople.

3/"Vercingetorix was proclaimed king of Gaul"
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/...chron3.html#50

He was never proclaimed king of Gaul, he was "simply" a charismatic and able leader who united virtually all Gaulish tribes and led them to a great revolt against the Roman invaders. His father was precisely burned alive because other Gaulish chieftains thought he was about to proclaim himself Emperor of the Gauls. However his name in Gaulish means "over-king" (ver-rix) of warriors (cingetos), which perhaps confused them.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Der Elsasser

As for "Hlodvig", I guess they are talking about Clovis. Has anyone ever heard this name ?

Yes, I have. You're right, it's Clovis. From germanic "Hlodvig" (glorious combatant) -or also "Hlodowecus"-, then Clovis which gave later "Ludovic" or "Ludwig" in Germany and "Louis" in France.

[Archangelos]

Nemesis

Have you seen the article on grecoreport about the invasion myth?

[Nemesis]

Archangelos

To be honest I don't give much credibility to grecoreport.
I avoid to visit their site cause, I hate reading the mistranslated quote of Isocrates they present. Even though I do believe they've done some really good work, that one just ticks me off too much.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

The 12th-century Christian Gerald of Wales gave eyewitness accounts of many rituals.
Gerald recorded a ceremony which took place in the early 1200s, where a crowd gathered to watch one of the tribal leaders have sexual intercourse with a horse!!!, before killing it.
After he had bathed in the blood of the animal, it was butchered, cooked and eaten by t