Vikings 'were warned to avoid Scotland'

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Though the same is the case for all the other revolutions, raids and intermigrations in and out of Europe, that "nothing will ever be the same". That seems to me a tautology if it's actually a significant scale.

I don't think that it is a tautology since although it does repeat a same idea (or rather a similar chain of events leading to similar consequences), it does not constitute an unneeded repetition. Instead, it presents a much needed vision of the "reality in the make" through the recalling of past events in a unique and –dare I say– advantageous way.

Perhaps a question would be why the recalling of historical past events is needed at all. But I would say that the answer is pretty obvious, wouldn't you?

As a hint, look at the pathetic ignorance displayed not only by self-styled nationalists and para-nationalists (for lack of better words) at online communities, which I have to admit that it is a very extreme and even fringe case of utter idiocy. But it does reflect the also pathetic and chaotic direction of so-called nationalist (again, for lack of a better word) political movements or parties throughout Europe, especially through their representatives.

Why do you think that they take steps towards one or another direction, only after that direction has been forced upon them by the change of trends in society and in politics, if not because of their ignorance?

[Benen an ynys]

Originally Posted by Faran

Or, you know, war against other countries...

Yep.

Originally Posted by Faran

That's the first time I hear something like that. Do you have anything specific in mind?

Not really. That was just me wondering if the Chinese govt would at some stage, in addressing this problem, set some kind of firm policy in place. If it could be established anywhere in the world, it would be China.

By "policy", I just mean something like offering incentives to foreign women (of childbearing age) to move to China.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Yago

I suspect that the lack of continuity of such a spirit beyond the Viking Age, makes it unlikely.

Such a warrior spirit on the historical scene had a continuity all the way back to many centuries B.C., though, from the war against Rome to serving as mercenaries in the Roman Army to war and expansion into Roman provinces to the final Viking Age raids and wars. Such a warrior spirit often seems to emerge in the kind of Iron Age society as the case in question, but there were some heavy societal changes after the Viking Age ended.

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

there were some heavy societal changes after the Viking Age ended.

That's interesting. What are you referring to?

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Faran

That's interesting. What are you referring to?

I am referring to a gradual ending and discontinuity with the more aggressive barbarian past into a very different kind of society and ethics.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I am referring to a gradual ending and discontinuity with the more aggressive barbarian past into a very different kind of society and ethics.

Though things didn't change overnight, and there were certainly many wars, things like the Norwegian Crusade, (and Denmark had some crusades too, like the crusade on Estonia) and civil wars and conflicts between Scandinavians, right after the Viking Age ended, and a lot of activity (except when the Black Death sort of passivised things). In fact, there were civil wars almsot constantly, up until yet another civil war and revolution, namely the Reformation, after which things changed even more, and after which there came a lot of wars with other Scandinavian countries, and Germany, and Britain.

But what I think changed was more the character of the wars (that is, no longer aggressive barbarian expansions) and the ethics in them.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Such a warrior spirit on the historical scene had a continuity all the way back to many centuries B.C., though, from the war against Rome to serving as mercenaries in the Roman Army to war and expansion into Roman provinces to the final Viking Age raids and wars. Such a warrior spirit often seems to emerge in the kind of Iron Age society as the case in question, but there were some heavy societal changes after the Viking Age ended.

Yes. I do not argue that. But I see now where I was failing to see things for what they were.

Namely that –even when you know about it– it is normal not to realise of the late development of Iron Age Culture in Scandinavia.

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

I am referring to a gradual ending and discontinuity with the more aggressive barbarian past into a very different kind of society and ethics.

If compared to the graduality in the discontinuity of the barbarian pasts of other peoples, I'm not sure if that discontinuity in Scandinavia would not be abrupt rather than gradual.

[Faran]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

Though things didn't change overnight, and there were certainly many wars, things like the Norwegian Crusade, (and Denmark had some crusades too, like the crusade on Estonia) and civil wars and conflicts between Scandinavians, right after the Viking Age ended, and a lot of activity (except when the Black Death sort of passivised things). In fact, there were civil wars almsot constantly, up until yet another civil war and revolution, namely the Reformation, after which things changed even more, and after which there came a lot of wars with other Scandinavian countries, and Germany, and Britain.

But what I think changed was more the character of the wars (that is, no longer aggressive barbarian expansions) and the ethics in them.

What were the reasons of that change?

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Faran

What were the reasons of that change?

I suspose that European Christendom. The spread of Civilisation through Christianity.

[Lutiferre]

Originally Posted by Faran

What were the reasons of that change?

Originally Posted by Yago

I suspose that European Christendom. The spread of Civilisation through Christianity.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Yago

Yes. I do not argue that. But I see now where I was failing to see things for what they were.

Namely that –even when you know about it– it is normal not to realise of the late development of Iron Age Culture in Scandinavia.

How was it late? The Pre-Roman (also called Celtic) Iron Age with ties to Hallstatt culture began in Denmark around the 500 BC as far as I know, and it was some centuries after that that the Germanic (or Germanic-Celtic, as I would have it) tribes started showing signs of aggressive warlike behaviour on the world history culminating in the war with the Roman Empire of the Cimbri, Teutones and Ambrones.

Originally Posted by Yago

If compared to the graduality in the discontinuity of the barbarian pasts of other peoples, I'm not sure if that discontinuity in Scandinavia would not be abrupt rather than gradual.

That is true, no doubt. Scandinavia remained isolated for longer than any other peoples in Europe and retained their original culture for that much longer.

I can only think that long up into history this must have meant ultimately a different social situation and mindset which probably shows its impact on the entire historical development of Scandinavians, even up to today. It was a rather different "entry point" to what spawned the historical process up until this day. Not in the sense of being simply barbarians, but of this unique course of development making for a rather different historical setting in Scandinavia than elsewhere.

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Lutiferre

How was it late? The Pre-Roman (also called Celtic) Iron Age with ties to Hallstatt culture began in Denmark around the 500 BC as far as I know

Sorry, I used the wrong words. Not as much a late start as a late end.

In the Mediterranean and in the Atlantic it ends with the start of the Classical Age, spreading with Roman Conquest. But in Scandinavia it survives during the Classical Age and until the Early Middle Ages.

This is what causes confusion if talking about Scandinavia and not being Scandinavian. It is easy not to realise that while you are thinking in historical terms, you should be doing it in proto-historical terms instead.