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History General History. The History of Europe and the World, from the Classic Era to modern days. Lost, Ancient and Classic Worlds, their origins and the causes that led to their rise and fall.

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Old Thursday, May 22nd, 2008
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Default Are castes, classes or estates the natural form of organization of societies?

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The "growth" even if it is real (i.e., not a statistical fabrication) is accruing to the small upper class. This is as true in India as it is in the USA as it is in England.
By bringing India into the equation, you reminded me of something I was thinking of for quite some time. It is evident that ruling elites in all Europe are slowly forming some kind of closed, impenetrable caste. Are we to expect some kind of caste system in Europe in the future, something similar to what India has been living with for millennia?

Last edited by Marcus Marulus; Thursday, May 22nd, 2008 at 15:05.
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Default Re: Record number of Germans moving abroad

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By bringing India into the equation, you reminded me of something I was thinking of for quite some time. It is evident that ruling elites in all Europe are slowly forming some kind of closed, impenetrable caste. Are we to expect some kind of caste system in Europe in the future, something similar to what India has been living with for millennia?
A caste system is the natural order of human societies. The ideas of social mobility and education, merit, and hard work as instruments of upward mobility are relatively recent (20th century?) and maybe a byproduct of mass society and mass man, with his inherent rootlessness. This phenomenon is seen at its most extreme in the USA, which is the largest mass society, with the most rootlessness. Though I should immediately qualify the last sentence to say that the phenomenon of the illusion of social mobility is most prevalent in the USA because, ironically, it is less mobile than Europe since only the affluent can now afford post-secondary education (and other cultural capital). Thus most everyone in the US is supposedly "middle-class" (the word "class" is taboo in political discourse) and everyone aspires to realise the "American dream." But I digress.

India's caste system has always been ethnically based. Aryan invaders set it up thousands of years ago, with (relatively) tall and fair-skinned people at the apex and shorter and darker-skinned people at the bottom. Even today, a glance at the matrimonial sections of Indian newspapers reveals an obsession with skin pigmentation (the girl/man is/should be "fair" or "wheat-colored," with a certain kind of height. But then again, English society has been based on similar lines: Normans at the top, Anglo-Saxons in-between, Celts towards the bottom, and everyone else an "untouchable."
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Old Thursday, May 22nd, 2008
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Default Re: Record number of Germans moving abroad

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A caste system is the natural order of human societies.
Hmmm...I am not so sure. For example, imperial China never had anything resembling castes, not even established classes. There was social mobility, which was possible by the system of imperial exams that were prerequisite for holding any office in the administration Even a son of a poor peasant could advance on the social scale, provided he learned how to write (no easy task in the Chinese case) and passed the "exams".

Among the Roman cives there was social mobility: there was no caste predestined for warriors, while others should be merchants etc. The same with Greece, many other examples could be quoted here.

The European Middle Ages had something somewhat resembling to a caste system, however, it was not so explicitly religiously sanctioned, unlike in the Indian case. From time to time there could be found some allegedly "theological" explanations why some people are born to be serfs, but it never became any sort of dogma or doctrine. The system of estates cannot be equalled with that of castes, however, I am speaking about some resemblances.

It is not altogether certain how the Hindu caste system came about. Some say it was initially based on merits and later on degnerated in what it is now. There are hypotheses that the castes were subdivisions of the conquering Aryans, whilst the whole conquered populations were pariahs.

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The ideas of social mobility and education, merit, and hard work as instruments of upward mobility are relatively recent (20th century?) and maybe a byproduct of mass society and mass man, with his inherent rootlessness.
Let us not confuse possibility of upward social mobility, which existed in many societies in the past and was somewhat reinforced in the modern age in some European countries, with the sickness of egalitarianism, which is by-product of the modern mass-society.

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Thus most everyone in the US is supposedly "middle-class" (the word "class" is taboo in political discourse) and everyone aspires to realise the "American dream."
Very typical. Nowadays there is the illusion (here in Europe as well) that everybody belongs to the "middle class". Even if you don't, you have to pretend to be "middle class". Often it is not even matter of financial assets you possess, but of some societal modes you stick to. Some people even endebt themselves to purchase some goods accompanying the image of "middle class", just to appear more "middle classy" than they are.

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India's caste system has always been ethnically based.
It is up to debate.

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Even today, a glance at the matrimonial sections of Indian newspapers reveals an obsession with skin pigmentation (the girl/man is/should be "fair" or "wheat-colored," with a certain kind of height.
They even have division between northern (allegedly lighter) and southern (allegedly more dark skinned) brahmins.

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But then again, English society has been based on similar lines: Normans at the top, Anglo-Saxons in-between, Celts towards the bottom, and everyone else an "untouchable."
Are you sure it was so strictly ethnically stratified? I am aware of the distinction between Normans and Anglo-Saxons, but Celts? Wasn't there local Welsh nobility in Wales (as far as I can remember from history)? Were there any Celts left in England (without Wales) by the time of the Norman conquest? Or if there were, were they treated as a separate, ethnically defined "caste"? And who was "everyone else"?
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Default Re: Record number of Germans moving abroad

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Hmmm...I am not so sure. For example, imperial China never had anything resembling castes, not even established classes. There was social mobility, which was possible by the system of imperial exams that were prerequisite for holding any office in the administration Even a son of a poor peasant could advance on the social scale, provided he learned how to write (no easy task in the Chinese case) and passed the "exams".

Among the Roman cives there was social mobility: there was no caste predestined for warriors, while others should be merchants etc. The same with Greece, many other examples could be quoted here.
Mea culpa. I am misusing the word "caste." I mean "class." Almost every society allows very able people from the lower classes to rise (to varying extents); and most societies allow very dysfunctional members of ruling classes to move down a notch or two (though George Bush in the USA is an obvious exception). Societies that don't allow for an infusion of fresh blood quickly become ossified and become incapable of responding to the new challenges that confront every living society.

There is an interesting book, which I have yet to acquire, titled, "The Class Sytem in the Ancient World." The Roman Republic, as it morphed into the Empire, became ossified as the citizen-farmers lost their land to large land-owners, and drifted to the cities to beome a lumpenproletariat, who had to be fed and entertained.

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Are you sure it was so strictly ethnically stratified? I am aware of the distinction between Normans and Anglo-Saxons, but Celts? Wasn't there local Welsh nobility in Wales (as far as I can remember from history)? Were there any Celts left in England (without Wales) by the time of the Norman conquest? Or if there were, were they treated as a separate, ethnically defined "caste"? And who was "everyone else"?
No, it was never strictly stratified. But it is revealing that when Margaret Thatcher artificially dyed her hair brown (she was a natural blonde), she was called a traitor. People may even be ignorant of the ethnic basis for class distinctions in the UK (i.e., between Normans, Saxons, and Celts), but that does not mean the ethnically-based class system does not perpetuate itself. The euphemism employed is that "he's not quite one of us."
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The Caste System

In ancient India there developed a social system in which people were divided into separate close communities. These communities are known in English as caste. The origin of the caste system is in Hinduism, but it affected the whole Indian society. The caste system in the religious form is basically a simple division of society in which there are four castes arranged in a hierarchy and below them the outcast. But socially the caste system was more complicated, with much more castes and sub-castes and other divisions. Legally the government disallows the practice of caste system but has a policy of affirmative discrimination of the backward classes.

The Beginning of the caste system

There are different theories about the establishment of the caste system. There are religious-mystical theories. There are biological theories. And there are socio-historical theories.

The religious theories explain how the four Varnas were founded, but they do not explain how the Jats in each Varna or the untouchables were founded. According the Rig Veda, the ancient Hindu book, the primal man - Purush - destroyed himself to create a human society. The different Varnas were created from different parts of his body. The Brahmans were created from his head; the Kshatrias from his hands; the Vaishias from his thighs and the Sudras from his feet. The Varna hierarchy is determined by the descending order of the different organs from which the Varnas were created. Other religious theory claims that the Varnas were created from the body organs of Brahma, who is the creator of the world.

The biological theory claims that all existing things, animated and unanimated, inherent three qualities in different apportionment. Sattva qualities include wisdom, intelligence, honesty, goodness and other positive qualities. Rajas include qualities like passion, pride, valour and other passionate qualities. Tamas qualities include dullness, stupidity, lack of creativity and other negative qualities. People with different doses of these inherent qualities adopted different types of occupation.

According to this theory the Brahmans inherent Sattva qualities. Kshatrias and Vaisias inherent Rajas qualities. And the Sudras inherent Tamas qualities.

Like human beings, food also inherents different dosage of these qualities and it affects its eater's intelligence. The Brahmans and the Vaisias have Sattvic diet which includes fruits, milk, honey, roots and vegetables. Most of the meats are considered to have Tamasic qualities. Many Sudra communities eat different kinds of meat (but not beef) and other Tamasic food. But the Kshatrias who had Rajasic diet eat some kinds of meat like deer meat which is considered to have Rajasic qualities. Many Marathas who claim to be Kshatrias eat mutton. The drawback of this theory is that in different parts of India the same food was sometimes qualified to have different dosage of inherent qualities. For example there were Brahmans who eat meat which is considered Tamasic food.

The social historical theory[/b][b] explains the creation of the Varnas, Jats and of the untouchables. According to this theory, the caste system began with the arrival of the Aryans in India. The Aryans arrived in India around 1500 BC. The fair skinned Aryans arrived in India from south Europe and north Asia. Before the Aryans there were other communities in India of other origins. Among them Negrito, Mongoloid, Austroloid and Dravidian. The Negrito have physical features similar to people of Africa. The Mongoloid have Chinese features. The Austroloids have features similar the aboriginals of Australia. The Dravidians originate from the Mediterranean and they were the largest community in India. When the Aryans arrived in India their main contact was with the Dravidians and the Austroloids. The Aryans disregarded the local cultures. They began conquering and taking control over regions in north India and at the same time pushed the local people southwards or towards the jungles and mountains in north India.

The Aryans organized among themselves in three groups. The first group was of the warriors and they were called Rajayana, later they changed their name Rajayana to Kshatria. The second group was of the priests and they were called Brahmans. These two groups struggled politically for leadership among the Aryans. In this struggle the Brahmans got to be the leaders of the Aryan society. The third group was of the farmers and craftsmen and they were called Vaisia. The Aryans who conquered and took control over parts of north India subdued the locals and made them their servants. In this process the Vaisias who were the farmers and the craftsmen became the landlords and the businessmen of the society and the locals became the peasants and the craftsmen of the society.

In order to secure their status the Aryans resolved some social and religious rules which, allowed only them to be the priests, warriors and the businesmen of the society. For example take Maharashtra. Maharashtra is in west India. This region is known by this name for hundreds of years. Many think that the meaning of the name Maharashtra is in its name, Great Land. But there are some who claim that the name, Maharashtra, is derived from the Jat called Mahar who are considered to be the original people of this region. In the caste hierarchy the dark skinned Mahars were outcasts. The skin color was an important factor in the caste system. The meaning of the word "Varna" is not class or status but skin color.

Between the outcasts and the three Aryan Varnas there is the Sudra Varna who are the simple workers of the society. The Sudras consisted of two communities. One community was of the locals who were subdued by the Aryans and the other were the descendants of Aryans with locals. In Hindu religious stories there are many wars between the good Aryans and the dark skinned demons and devils. The different Gods also have dark skinned slaves. There are stories of demon women trying to seduce good Aryan men in deceptive ways. There were also marriages between Aryan heroes and demon women. Many believe that these incidences really occurred in which, the gods and the positive heroes were people of Aryan origin. And the demons, the devils and the dark skinned slaves were in fact the original residence of India whom the Aryans coined as monsters, devil, demons and slaves.

As in most of the societies of the world, so in India, the son inherited his father's profession. And so in India there developed families, who professed the same family profession for generation in which, the son continued his father's profession. Later on as these families became larger, they were seen as communities or as they are called in Indian languages, Jat. Different families who professed the same profession developed social relations between them and organized as a common community, meaning Jat.

Later on the Aryans who created the caste system, added to their system non-Aryans. Different Jats who professed different professions were integrated in different Varnas according to their profession. Other foreign invaders of ancient India - Greeks, Huns, Scythains and others - who conquered parts of India and created kingdoms were integrated in the Kshatria Varna (warrior castes). But probably the Aryan policy was not to integrate original Indian communities within them and therefore many aristocratic and warrior communities that were in India before the Aryans did not get the Kshatria status.

Most of the communities that were in India before the arrival of the Aryans were integrated in the Sudra Varna or were made outcast depending on the professions of these communities. Communities who professed non-polluting jobs were integrated in Sudra Varna. And communities who professed polluting professions were made outcasts. The Brahmans are very strict about cleanliness. In the past people believed that diseases can also spread also through air and not only through physical touch. Perhaps because of this reason the untouchables were not only disallowed to touch the high caste communities but they also had to stand at a certain distance from the high castes.

The Religious form of Caste System

In Hinduism there exists four castes arranged in a hierarchy. Anyone who does not belong to one of these castes is an outcast. The religious word for caste is 'Varna'. Each Varna has certain duties and rights. Each Varna members have to work in certain occupation which only that Varna members are allowed. Each Varna has certain type of diet. The highest Varna is of the Brahman. Members of this class are priests and the educated people of the society. The Varna after them in hierarchy is Kshatria. The members of this class are the rulers and aristocrats of the society. After them are the Vaisia. Members of this class are the landlords and businessmen of the society. After them in hierarchy are the Sudra. Members of this class are the peasants and working class of the society who work in non-polluting jobs. The caste hierarchy ends here. Below these castes are the outcasts who are untouchable to the four castes. These untouchables worked in degrading jobs like cleaning, sewage etc.

The first three castes had social and economical rights which the Sudra and the untouchables did not have. The first three castes are also seen as 'twice born'. The intention in these two births is to the natural birth and to the ceremonial entrance to the society at a much later age.

Each Varna and also the untouchables are divided into many communities. These communities are called Jat or Jati (The caste is also used instead of Jat). For example the Brahmans have Jats called Gaur, Kokanastha, Sarasvat, Iyer and others. The outcasts have Jats like Mahar, Dhed, Mala, Madiga and others. The Sudra is the largest Varna and it has the largest number of communities. Each Jat is limited to professions worthy of their Varna. Each Jat is limited to the Varna diet. Each Jat members are allowed to marry only with their Jat members. People are born into their Jat and it cannot be changed.

This is the how the caste system is supposed to be in its religious form. But in reality it is much more complicated and different from its religious form.

The Confusing Caste System

The confusion in the caste system begins by the use of the word caste. The Indians in their different languages use the word 'Jat' for any community who have something common like religion, language, origin, similar geographical background and so on. The Indians also use the word 'Jat' for Varna. The Portuguese who were the first European power to arrive in India distorted the word 'Jat' into caste. The British who arrived to India much later after the Portuguese also used the word caste. The British used the word Caste instead of Jat and Varna. And so sometimes in English the caste system is explained in a confusing way according to which, the caste system consists of four castes which are divided into many castes. Sometimes in English the word caste is used for Varna and the word sub-caste for Jat. In this section to prevent confusion we will use the words Varna and Jat.

And now we will see the complication in the caste system itself.

Each Varna consists of many communities called Jats. Each Varna does consist of different Jats but many of these Jats break up into more communities and each such community refers to itself as different or unique Jat. There are different reasons for these different communities within each Jat. One reason can be the different occupations each community within the Jat professes. Other reasons can be inter-Jat political reasons. Many Jats consists of millions of people and it also causes break up of the larger community into smaller communities. There are also Jats which originate from different parts of India and profess the same profession and therefore get a common name, even though they are not one single community. For example the Jats that profess cloth washing are called collectively as Dhobi. For non- Dhobis the Dhobis are one Jat but within them they are not one community.

The hierarchy between the Varnas. All the Jats accept that the Brahman Varna is the highest Varna in the hierarchy and the untouchables are outcast and lowest in the hierarchy. But most of the Jats in different Varnas claim to be superior and higher than other Jats. Some of the Jats as stated earlier break up into smaller communities or Jats. In these Jats that break up into different communities, there are communities that look at themselves as superior or higher in hierarchy than other communities. Among the Brahman Varna, there are Jats that consider themselves as superior than other Brahman Jats. Some of the Brahman Jats break up into smaller communities, and between these communities within the Jat there also exist a hierarchy.

Among the other Varnas there also exists hierarchy phenomenon. Different Jats claim to be superior than the other Jats in their Varna. Some Jats in the Vaisia and Sudra Varnas also claim to be closer or equal in hierarchy to the Brahman Varna. These Jats that claim this status adopted Brahman customs like vegetarian diet and strict observance of purity and cleanliness. Some Jats claim to be closer to Kshatria, which is the warrior class of the Indian society. The Marathas in west India and Reddys in south India were among the Jats which claimed Kshatria status.

Among the outcast there was also the superior status phenomenon in which one outcast Jat considered itself as superior and did not have physically contact with other outcast Jats which it considered as inferior. For example the Mahars in west India considered themselves superior than Dhed and they did not mingle with the Dheds.

Each Jat professes an occupation worthy of its Varna status. In most of the cases there was a connection between a persons profession and his Varna. Among the different Varnas there also developed guilds based on Jat lines, professing specific professions. In west India the Jat that professed oil pressing were called Somwar Teli. Another Jat members were the shepherds of the society and they were called Dhangar. Another Jat members were the cowherds of the society and they were called Gaoli. The Kunbis were the peasants of the society.

But some of the professions had different status in different parts of India and they were located at different levels in the caste hierarchy. For example Dhobis (washers) in north India were seen as untouchables. While in west India they had Sudra status. The oil pressers in east India were seen as untouchables, in central India they had a high status while in west India they had Sudra status.

There were also many cases where the Jat members did not profess occupation worthy of their Varna. Many Brahmans, who are supposed to be the priest and learned of the society, did not find jobs as priests or did not manage to feed their families as priests and therefore worked as simple farmers. On the other hand there were many Brahmans who were landlords and businessmen, professions supposed to belong to the Vaisia Varna.

Also among the other Varnas not all professed the occupations worthy of their Varna. In west India the Maratha were the warriors and the aristocracy. Originally the Marathas belonged to the different Jats in west India. Most of these Jats were in Sudra level. But the Marathas who became the aristocracy of west India claimed and acquired the Kshatria status. In the 17th and the 18th century the Marathas even established an empire which ruled large parts of India. During the Maratha reign members of a Brahman Jat, Kokanastha Brahman, were ministers. From 1750 these Brahmans became the rulers of the Maratha Empire.

Like the Marathas there were other communities which, religiously did not belong to the Kshatria status but acquired this status. The Reddy in Andra Pradesh and Nayar in Kerala are such two examples.

Religiously marriage occurs within the Jat. The different Jats members almost always respected this rule and people who dared break this rule were outcasted. But this rule also had exceptions. Usually the higher Varnas were very strict about this custom. But in some of the higher level Jats of the society, they used to have polygamy. In these cases, because of scarcity of women, men use to marry women from the lower levels of the society.

In some Indian societies between-jat marriage was even an acceptable feature. One such example of marriages existed in Kerala, in south India. In Kerala, Nayar women (aristocracy community) married men from Numbodiri Brahman community.

Another problem considering the Jat marriage was the internal structure of the Jats. As stated earlier some Jats break up into smaller communities. In most of the cases each such community members marry only with members of their own community and not with other community members within the Jat. In some cases there is a hierarchy between the different communities of the same Jat. In such cases a daughter from the lower community could marry a son from the higher community but not vice versa.

Each Varna had different diet. Hinduism has many strict dietary rules. In general the higher Jats are more strict about their dietary customs than the lower Jats. The Brahman Jats have the most strict dietary customs. They will not eat in lower Jats homes or even with lower Jats (because of this reason many restaurants hired Brahman cooks). The Brahman diet is supposed to include only vegetarian food. Jats who claimed Brahman status also adopted vegetarian diet of the Brahmans. But there are some Brahman Jats who traditionally eat meat, fish, chicken and egg (which is considered non-vegetarian). Some Brahman Jats in Kashmir, Orissa, Bengal and Maharashtra traditionally eat meat. But this meat was never cattle meat.

Jat is determined by birth and it cannot be changed. In the beginning the caste system was not a strict system and people could move from one Varna to another. Indologists give different dates to this period of change. Some claim the change occurred around 500 B. C. and other claim 500 A. D. Until then, communities and even singular person moved from one Varna to another Varna, because of their desire to adopt different occupations. There were some kings who belonged the Kshatria (warrior castes) and changed their status to become religious Brahmans. There were also who changed their status to become warriors. And even after the caste system was organized in a strict manner there were many communities who did not always follow their status occupations. There was a case of a Jat that lost its high status because they did not profess the profession worthy of their Varna. The Kayastha of east and north east India originally belonged to the Kshatria Varna (warrior caste). Some time in the past among warriors communities, there developed a bureaucratic unit whose job was writing and listing war events and they were called Kayasthas. Because these unit members were not warriors, they were excluded from the Kshatria status and were given a lower status. But the Kayasthas even today claim Kshatria status.

The Jat status

Jats like Kayastha, Reddy, Maratha, Nayar and others changed the basic four-fold hierarchy caste system. These Jats had high status but their exact status is not clear and different communities give different interpretations to their status of different Jats. As stated earlier different Jats claim theirs to be the superior than the other Jats and therefore the caste system even today is not always interpreted objectively by Indians but subjectively. For example the Kayastha claim themselves to be Kshatria while others do not always agree with this claim. Among the Marathas the confusion is even greater. In the narrow sense the Jat of Maratha applies to 96 clans who ruled and governed the parts of west India. Originally the Maratha clans belonged to different levels of Indian hierarchy. They mostly belonged to different Jats of Sudra. But many Jats of west Maharashtra claim that they are Marathas too. Sometimes the Kokanastha Brahmans (who were ministers of Maratha empire in 18th century and later on continued the Maratha Empire and their reign) are also introduced as Marathas causing a greater confusion in Maratha definition.

The reasons stated above are among the few reasons that causes confusion in caste system.

Untouchables

The untouchablity feature in the caste system is one of the cruelest features of the caste system. It is seen by many as one of the strongest racist phenomenon in the world.

In the Indian society people who worked in ignominious, polluting and unclean occupations were seen as polluting peoples and were therefore considered as untouchables. The untouchables had almost no rights in the society. In different parts of India they were treated in different ways. In some regions the attitude towards the untouchables was harsh and strict. In other regions it was less strict.

In regions where the attitude was less strict the untouchables were seen as polluting people and their dwellings were at a distance from the settlements of the four Varna communities. The untouchables were not allowed to touch people from the four Varnas. They were not allowed to enter houses of the higher Varnas. They were not allowed to enter the temples. They were not allowed to use the same wells used by the Varnas. In public occasions they were compelled to sit at a distance from the four Varnas. In regions where the attitude towards the untouchables were more severe, not only touching them was seen polluting, but also even a contact with their shadow was seen as polluting.

If, because of any reason, there was a contact between an untouchable and a member of the Varnas, the Varna member became defiled and had to immerse or wash himself with water to be purified. In strict societies, especially among the 'Twice Born' (the three top Varnas) the touched 'Twice Born' also had to pass through some religious ceremonies to purify himself from the pollution. If the untouchable entered a house and touched things of a Varna member, the Varna members used to wash or clean the places where the untouchable touched and stepped.

In some incidences the untouchables who associated with the Varna members were beaten and even murdered for that reason. Some higher hierarchy Jats also had servants whose job was to go or walk before the high Jats members and announce their coming to the streets and to see to it that the streets would be clear of untouchable people.

The orthodox Hindus treated anyone who worked in any kind of polluting job as untouchable and did not have any contact with them. According to orthodox rules any one who does not belong to the four Varnas, meaning foreigners, are untouchables.

The non-Hindus in caste system

Religiously anyone who does not belong to the four Varnas is an outcast and untouchable. It means, all foreigners and non-Hindus are all supposed to be untouchables. But in reality neither all foreigners nor non-Hindus were treated as untouchables. Foreigners and non-Hindus were treated differently in different parts of India. Some of the foreigners adopted Hinduism and integrated in the upper level of the Hindu hierarchy.

The Rajputs of Rajasthan belong to the Kshatria Varna (warrior castes). The Rajputs, more than any other Indian Jat, represent the warrior castes of India. Almost any Indian community which claims to be a warrior community, claims a Rajput ancestry. But it is believed that many foreign invaders of ancient India (see- India in the past), like Scythians; Huns; Greeks and others, who adopted Hinduism, integrated in the Rajput community and acquired a Kshatria status (see also Sati - burning of the widow).

The Konkanash Brahmans of west India are also believed to have non- Indian descent. According to a Hindu legend, an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, Parsuram, found on the Konkan beach some dead bodies which were washed to the shore. In order to cremate them Parsuram gathered them on a pyre. These dead bodies woke up on pyre, probably because they were not dead in the first place but were only unconscious. Parsuram converted these people to Hinduism and made them Brahmans. There are other theories about the origins of these Kokanasth Brahmans. Many of these Brahmans have gray-green eyes. Some claim them to be Vikings or of other European origin. In the Konkan coast there is Jewish community called Bene Israel. Some claim that these Jews are from the 'Lost Tribes'. These Jews who arrived in India after their ship-wrecked near the Konkan coast claim that they and the Kokanastha Brahmans are descendants of the survivals from the same ship. And in their version, it was not an incarnation of Lord Vishnu who converted the Kokanastha Brahmans but a local Brahman. Anyway these Jews do not have gray-green eyes like the Kokanastha Brahmans.

Different religion followers got different status in different parts of India. The Jews of west India (called Bene Israel) had a different status from Jews of south India (Cochini Jews). The Bene Israels professed oil pressing and they had a status equal to a Hindu Jat called Somvar Teli, which also professed oil pressing and were part of Sudra Varna. Some orthodox Hindus treated anyone who was a non-Hindu or doing any type as polluting job as untouchable and therefore treated the Jews as untouchables. But even though the Jews in west India had low status there were among them some who were landlords, businessmen and high rank officers in local armies.

Comparing to the Bene Israels, the Jews in south India had higher status. The Jews in Kerala were the business community of Kerala. They even ruled a small kingdom. They had aristocratic rights, such as use of elephants and sedans. They even had servants whose job was to announce their coming to the streets so that the low castes could move away from their way.

The relations between the Jewish communities of India are sometimes explained as affected by the Indian caste system but these relations can also be explained according to Jewish religious laws. There were three main Jewish communities in India. The Baghdadis, the Bene Israels and Cochinis. The Baghdadi Jews were much strict about religious laws than the Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not mingle with Bene Israel Jews. The Baghdadis did not allow marriages between their children and the children of Bene Israel. They did not eat food prepared by Bene Israel and they refused to count the Bene Israel as part of the Minyan (the ten necessary to start a Jewish prayer). Many explain these relations as an influence of the Indian caste system on the Jewish communities. According to this explanation, the Baghdadi Jews referred to themselves as higher caste than the Bene Israel Jews and therefore did not mingle with them. But these relations between the Jewish communities can also be explained according to the Jewish Halacha laws. The Baghdadi Jews who were much strict about Jewish laws and diet did not mingle with the Bene Israels because the Bene Israels were secular Jews and they perceived in Bene Israel Jews as impure Jews.

The Muslims who arrived in India were strong and powerful to be treated as untouchables. Not only were they strong in the military sense, they also tried to enforce their religion on the Indians. The Indians who converted to Islam in most of the cases remained in the same social status as they had before their conversion to Islam. Hindus from the higher Varnas remained at the higher levels of Indian society. Hindus from the lower levels of the hierarchy thought that by converting to Islam they would come out from the Hindu hierarchy system, but in most of the cases they remained in the same hierarchy level after they converted. Among the Muslims of India there has developed a two-tier hierarchy. The upper class, called Sharif Jat, includes Muslims who belonged to the higher levels in caste hierarchy and also Muslims who arrived to India from foreign countries. The lower class, called Ajlaf Jat, includes Muslim converts from lower castes. As in the world, the upper classes do not have close social relations with lower classes, the same way the Sharif Jat do not normally have close social relations with Ajlaf Jat.

The different Christian communities of India were treated in different ways in different parts of India. The Syrian Christians of Kerala had a high status. Along with the Jews, they were the business communities of Kerala and they too had aristocratic rights. The Indians who were baptized from the 16th century by Christian missionaries remained mostly in the same status they had before. As in the Muslim community of India, the Christians also have a two-tier social hierarchy. Many untouchables who converted to Christianity are still treated as untouchables, sometimes by other Christians.

The European Christians are also supposed to be untouchables to Hindus. Some Europeans in the 17th and 18th century even claimed that they were treated as untouchables. But later on with British rule over India it were the upper level Hindu castes, specially the Brahmans, who adopted the European democratic philosophy according to which all are equal and they introduced it to other Indians.

Other religions which were established in India - Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism - also have some marks of caste system, even though they oppose caste system. Sikhism rejects caste system. But different Jats who adopted Sikhism act according to traditional Jat lines. The different Jats normally marry within caste lines. The Jats which were the elite of the Punjab and converted to Sikhism do not give equal respect to Sikhs who belong to the lower levels of Indian hierarchy. The Jains also have separate communities who marry within the community lines. The Buddhist in India have a two-tier hierarchy and just like in the cases of Christians and Muslims it is also related to the status of the community to whom the person belongs. On the other hand the Mahar community of west India, who were untouchables and converted mostly to Buddhism, prefer, because of different political reasons to recognize themselves as Mahars and not always as Buddhists.

Not all residents of India were part of the caste system. About 7% of India's population are referred to as tribes and not as castes or Jats. These tribes are scattered all around India and they are descendants of communities who were not interested in the Varna hierarchy. They preferred to live away from the main societies deep in the jungles, forests and mountains of India. They survived mostly on fishing, hunting or simple agriculture, and also from stealing, robbing and plundering. These tribes had different religious beliefs and different gods. Some of them had simple beliefs, but others use to sacrifice human beings in their ceremonies. One such tribe, called Gond, had a strong kingdom in central India. Most of the tribes adopted Hinduism, others adopted Islam or Christianity. Some tribes in East India claim to Jewish origin.

Caste system in modern India

The leaders of independent India decided that India will be democratic, socialist and secular country. According to this policy there is a separation between religion and state. Practicing untouchability or discriminating a person based on his caste is legally forbidden. Along with this law the government allows positive discrimination of the depressed classes of India.

The Indians have also become more flexible in their caste system customs. In general the urban people in India are less strict about the caste system than the rural. In cities one can see different caste people mingling with each other, while in some rural areas there is still discrimination based on castes and sometimes also on untouchability. Sometimes in villages or in the cities there are violent clashes which, are connected to caste tensions. Sometimes the high castes strike the lower castes who dare to uplift their status. Sometimes the lower caste get back on the higher castes.

In modern India the term caste is used for Jat and also for Varna. The term, caste was used by the British who ruled India until 1947. The British who wanted to rule India efficiently made lists of Indian communities. They used two terms to describe Indian communities. Castes and Tribes. The term caste was used for Jats and also for Varnas. Tribes were those communities who lived deep in jungles, forests and mountains far away from the main population and also communities who were hard to be defined as castes for example communities who made a living from stealing or robbery. These lists, which the British made, were used later on by the Indian governments to create lists of communities who were entitled for positive discrimination.

The castes, which were the elite of the Indian society, were classified as high castes. The other communities were classified as lower castes or lower classes. The lower classes were listed in three categories. The first category is called Scheduled Castes. This category includes in it communities who were untouchables. In modern India, untouchability exists at a very low extent. The untouchables call themselves Dalit, meaning depressed. Until the late 1980s they were called Harijan, meaning children of God. This title was given to them by Mahatma Gandhi who wanted the society to accept untouchables within them.

The second category is Scheduled Tribes. This category includes in it those communities who did not accept the caste system and preferred to reside deep in the jungles, forests and mountains of India, away from the main population. The Scheduled Tribes are also called Adivasi, meaning aboriginals.

The third category is called sometimes Other Backward Classes or Backward Classes. This category includes in it castes who belong to Sudra Varna and also former untouchables who converted from Hinduism to other religions. This category also includes in it nomads and tribes who made a living from criminal acts.

According to the central government policy these three categories are entitled for positive discrimination. Sometimes these three categories are defined together as Backward Classes. 15% of India's population are Scheduled Castes. According to central government policy 15% of the government jobs and 15% of the students admitted to universities must be from Scheduled Castes. For the Scheduled Tribes about 7.5% places are reserved which is their proportion in Indian population. The Other Backwards Classes are about 50% of India's population, but only 27% of government jobs are reserved for them.

Along with the central government, the state governments of India also follow a positive discrimination policy. Different states have different figures of communities entitled for positive discrimination based on the population of each state. Different state governments have different lists of communities entitled for positive discrimination. Sometimes a specific community is entitled for rights in a particular state but not in another state of India.

In modern India new tensions were created because of these positive discrimination policies. The high caste communities feel discriminated by the government policy to reserve positions for the Backward Classes. In many cases a large number of high caste members compete for a few places reserved for them. While the Backward Classes members do not have to compete at all because of the large number of reserved places for them compared to the candidates. Sometimes in order to fill the quota, candidates from the lower classes are accepted even though they are not suitable. Sometimes some reserved positions remain unmanned because there were few candidates from the lower classes causing more tension between the castes. Between the lower castes there are also tensions over reservation.

In the order of priority for a reserved place of the Backward Classes, candidate from the Scheduled castes is preferred over a candidate from the Scheduled Tribes who is preferred over a candidate from the other Backward Classes. As stated earlier Other Backward Classes are about 50% of India's population but only 27% of the Other Backward Classes are entitled for positive discrimination according to central government policy. Some Other Backward Classes communities are organizing politically to be recognized as Backward Classes entitled for positive discrimination.

The Scheduled Tribes who are seen as the aborigins of India got ownership and certain rights over Indian land. Many communities in India claim also to be aborigins of India and they are claiming the same rights as the Scheduled Tribes.

The caste identity has become a subject of political, social and legal interpretation. Communities who get listed as entitled for positive discrimination do not get out of this list even if their social and political conditions get better. In many cases the legal system is involved to decide if a certain person is entitled for positive discrimination.

But with all this positive discrimination policy, most of the communities who were low in the caste hierarchy remain low in the social order even today. And communities who were high in the social hierarchy remain even today high in the social hierarchy. Most of the degrading jobs are even today done by the Dalits, while the Brahmans remain at the top of the hierarchy by being the doctors, engineers and lawyers of India.
[source]

Some possible explanations on the origin of castes...

Last edited by Marcus Marulus; Friday, May 23rd, 2008 at 14:02.
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Default Re: Are castes, classes or estates the natural form of organization of societies?

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Medieval Society: The Three Orders



Here below, some pray, others fight, still others work . . .
from the beginning, mankind has been divided into three parts,
among men of prayer, farmers, and men of war . . .


Two passages written at the beginning of the 11th century -- the first by Bishop Adalbero of Laon, the second by Gerard of Cambrai. The image of a tripartite society divided by function has become a hallmark of medieval European history. I think that an understanding of this tripartite division of European society is important both for our understanding of medieval European history, but also for the subsequent history of the Continent, especially in the 18th century. It was during that century that the ancien regime faced its gravest challenge during the heady days of the French Revolution. One of the first things the revolutionaries abolished was feudalism (August 4, 1789) and with it, the remnants of a society based on status and prestige, a society based on the division of orders according to one's function -- those who work, those who fight and those who pray.

THOSE WHO WORK

By the 11th and 12th centuries, the vast majority of European men and women were peasants who were the land of their lords. We know very little about these people for the simple fact that the nobility and clergy did not keep written records about them. When the peasantry of Europe was mentioned, it was usually in relation to the obligations they owed their superiors.

In the centuries that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire the line separating slave and serf became less distinct. Of course, both slaves and serf lacked freedom and were subject to the will of the lord. Throughout the long history of medieval serfdom, the serf was required to perform labor services for his lord. Although the number of days devoted to working the lord's land varied from place to place, it was usually three days a week, accepted harvest time, when the lord would expect even more. Furthermore, the serf was tied to the land and his condition was hereditary. By the 12th century and England, it was indeed common for some serfs to be made free. With the rise of towns, the increased productivity of the land, long-distance trade, and the development of a money economy, more and more serfs managed to find themselves living in a condition of freedom. Of course, what this really meant was that the peasants could now rent his land from the lord for a certain period of time. Equally important, with the passage of time many serfs no longer owed their lords a labor obligation, but rather various direct and indirect taxes on almost every task on the medieval manor. Because many landlords had lost their serfs, the lords relaxed ancient obligations and duties.

Most medieval European peasants lived on vast estates called manors (from the Latin, meaning "dwelling" or "residence"). The medieval manor varied in size from as little as 100 acres to more than 1000. A manor could also include one village, a few villages, or none at all.

The land of the manor was divided into two parts: the demense was the lord's land worked by the peasants. The other part was held by the peasants. Their plot was usually much larger based on the condition that they cultivate the lord's demense before their own. The land itself was divided into long strips and it was entirely possible that one serf would have to work in number of strips spread out across the manor. Furthermore, the medieval estate required cooperation among all serfs since horses and plows were few. Medieval manors also had tracts of forest as well as open meadow for the grazing of cattle and sheep. It was from the forest and meadow that the serf could practice gleaning -- the gathering of firewood or thatch, fishing and hunting -- in order to subsidize the rather meager diet of his family.

It ought to be clear that life on the medieval manor was simple and uncomplicated. The serf's life was basically the life of the manor on which he or she was born. Most serfs never traveled beyond the estate of their lord. Although such an arrangement may strike us as far to local, the family of the serf did maintain a strong sense of family and community, and was also certain of support from his lord or other members of the village community in times of trouble. In other words, people knew what to expect from life. There was a sense of continuity and simplicity embraced by medieval society, something we moderns would probably have a hard time understanding. Of course, life on the medieval manor was perhaps dull and uninspiring. If we consider that nearly every day of the medieval peasant's existence was dedicated to farming arable land, there must have been little time left over for things of an intellectual or cultural nature.

Of all the characteristics of medieval peasant society that European historians have discussed over the last several decades, none was perhaps more important than the Christian religion as practiced by ordinary men and women. Unlike the practice of religion today, medieval men and women saw Christian belief and practice permeate all aspects of everyday life. In other words, Christianity was a matrix of ideas and modes of behavior not easy to dislodge from the mind set of medieval men and women.

The village Church was the center of the medieval community. Nearly all of the important events in the short life of medieval men and women took place within the confines of the Church or churchyard. A person was usually baptized within hours of birth. Men and women confessed their sins to the priest and received the sacraments of Eucharist on Holy Days. There were also feasts that accompanied baptisms, weddings and generals, and were held in the churchyard. The village priest also read messages from secular and Church authorities.

Popular medieval religion was shot through with rituals and symbolism. For instance, before slicing bread a woman would tap the sign of the cross on it with her knife. The entire calendar was created with reference to many Holy Days. Everyone participated in village processions.

But what did Christianity mean to the medieval peasant? For the most part, they accepted what their family, and custom, and the village priest had told them. Although the mass was in Latin, the priest delivered sermons, usually on the Gospel, in the vernacular. Paintings and stained-glass windows on the walls of the church offered the meaning of biblical stories. Peasants had a strong sense of the existence of God, believing that God was directly involved in human affairs and could reward the virtuous. Of course, they believed that God punished men and women for their sins with disease, plague, poor harvest, and war. The Devil seemed to be everywhere, forcing people to commit evil deeds and thoughts.

In general, the life of evil men and women who lived off the land was short and hard. But life in the village community did entail cooperation and the values of a simple life. Although these people did not have the luxuries which the 21st century has bequeathed upon us, they did have a life that was regular and consistent and shot through with a singularity of purpose.

THOSE WHO FIGHT

The nobility influenced all aspects of medieval politics, economics, religion, and culture. It is perhaps for this reason alone that European society from about the 12th century on may be termed aristocratic. In fact, the aristocracy continue to hold within its grasp political and social power right down to the eve of the Great War of 1914-1918. Although the nobility of medieval Europe varied from place to place, and from time to time, a few general conclusions can be made.

As the second Estate, the medieval nobility had special legal status. A man who was a member of the nobility was free in his person and in his possessions. His only limitation concerned his military obligation to his lord. As a member of the nobility, he had certain rights and responsibilities: he could raise troops and command them in the field, he held his own courts of justice, he could coined his own money. He was the lord of all those people who settled on his land.

The medieval nobility was, of course, was an Estate of warriors -- those who fight. His social function was to protect the weak and the poor. And this was to be accomplished with a horse and a sword, the two visible signs of his nobility. He was also encouraged to display the virtues of chivalry, a code of conduct created by the clergy to curb the brutality of this order of knights.

When a young member of the nobility finally came into possession of his property, he acquired authority over land and people. The nobility rarely lived up to this standard. The reasons for this may be that the nobility wanted immediate gratification. The problem was, there were many times when the nobility were not involved in warfare either with foreign enemies or rival lords. In other words. in times of peace the nobility needed an outlet for their warlike aggression. This came with their participation in the medieval tournament.

The medieval nobility lived without working. Instead, one's identification with the nobility came from their ability as a warrior and also with their complete jurisdiction over their property. Such jurisdiction allowed them to gratify their desires for lavish living. Since the status of the medieval noble depended on his household, it seems obvious that he would make every attempt to increase the number of retainers, or vassals, he could maintain. His clothes grew more elegant, his castle larger, his food and table more ornate.

The noble also had to look after his own land. He had to appoint wise stewards who would watch his estate, collect direct and indirect taxes as well as rents, while he made every effort to obtain more status by fighting were serving the court of his lord. And since a great lord's estates were usually scattered over wide area, he was constantly on the move. Although the Church condemned fighting in killing, it was not able to stop the violence so characteristic of the medieval nobility. As a result the nobility of Europe became a constant thorn in the side for nearly all European monarchs. From the 13th century on, the medieval kings began to draw upon the middle classes in order to create a bureaucracy that would eventually lay the foundation for royal absolutism of the 16th and 17th centuries. Lastly, it was the Holy Crusades that managed to give the European nobility a chance to dedicate themselves to their Christian lords by conducting missions to rid the Holy Lands of the infidels. European monarchs were more than happy to see their nobility go off and fight, from the one hand, the Crusades served as a safety valve, and on the other, preserved the prestigious status of the monarchies themselves.[/size]

THOSE WHO PRAY

At the top of medieval society was the first Estate, the clergy, those who pray. It was the village priest who was to oversee the spiritual life of his flock on the medieval manor. His duties were to administer the necessary sacraments with regularity and consistency. He was also important to absolve men and women of their sins for the act of confession. He was also, as we have already seen, the usual source of secular and ecclesiastical pronouncements. His role, then, in the medieval village was extraordinary. Of course, not all village priests were as dedicated to the holiness of their flock as we would like to believe. However, it was the village priest with whom medieval men and women identified the Church, its teachings, and authority.

Although monasticism was firmly entrenched in medieval society by the time of Charlemagne (see Lecture 19), by the 11th or 12 century, monks had become more visible members of town and village alike. The monasteries were dedicated to prayer and supplying the evil Europe with the ideal of a Christian civilization. Monasteries also produced and educated elite that were utilized in service to lords and kings. The monks also kept alive classical culture and introduced the techniques of efficient and profitable land management.[/size]

By the 11th or 12 century, the original mission of the monastic movement had been altered to accommodate the children of the nobility with an honorable an aristocratic life. Such a life also held out the possibility for an ecclesiastical career. By the 13th century the older Benedictine monasteries had to compete with new orders such as the Dominicans and Franciscans (see Lecture 27). As a result, more monks had to be recruited from the middle classes who inhabited the area near an abbey.

As medieval Europe prospered during the 12th century Renaissance and after, there was a marked increase in the number of cities in large towns. In these sorts of places one could see firsthand the representatives of the Church. What the townspeople began to observe was a clergy who seemed more willing to live the life of a European prince or noble, then someone whose sole duty was the spiritual guidance of the people. The Church, it was commonly believed, seemed to be inhabited by people who were interested only in the aggrandizement of their own wealth, power, and prestige. The stage seemed to be said for the rise in heresy of the 12th century and after. Most medieval men and women regarded their Christianity with seriousness and genuine faith. If monks, and bishops, and other members of the clergy, were engaged in acts of holiness, then why did it seem that they were living a life of luxury and opulence? These were questions that would become of utmost importance in the following centuries leading up to the Protestant Reformation.

Our exposition of the three estates has been decidedly brief, however, it must again be stressed that medieval European society cannot really be understood without reference to this carefully graded hierarchy based on function and status. Indeed, prestige and status oftentimes became more important than wealth or land. Just the same, this tripartite division of society predominated European history right down to the 18th and 19th centuries when the French and Industrial Revolutions changed all social relationships for good.
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Default Re: Record number of Germans moving abroad

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Originally Posted by bombadillo View Post
There is an interesting book, which I have yet to acquire, titled, "The Class Sytem in the Ancient World."
Who wrote that book?

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Originally Posted by bombadillo View Post
The Roman Republic, as it morphed into the Empire, became ossified as the citizen-farmers lost their land to large land-owners, and drifted to the cities to beome a lumpenproletariat, who had to be fed and entertained.
The very term proletarii, later taken over by Marx and his ilk, came into being in that period.

Maybe a comparison could be established between this and the chasing of the peasants from the land (enclosures etc) to factories and mines by the class of large land-owners in England?

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Originally Posted by bombadillo View Post
But it is revealing that when Margaret Thatcher artificially dyed her hair brown (she was a natural blonde), she was called a traitor. People may even be ignorant of the ethnic basis for class distinctions in the UK (i.e., between Normans, Saxons, and Celts), but that does not mean the ethnically-based class system does not perpetuate itself. The euphemism employed is that "he's not quite one of us."
I see, but aren't there many black haired or brown haired Englishmen as well? Or you wish to say that blond people are felt to be more genuinely phenotypically English?

No pun or sarcasm here, I am really interested.
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