Your Opinion On The Macedonian Issue

[agamemnon]

I would like to like to learn whats the opinion of everyone here in the forum, concerning the macedonian issue.

[Timo]

Please be more specific for us non-balkan posters. Which Issue with Macedonia are you talking about?

[Archangelos]

Macedonia was, is, and will always be Hellenic.

[Reltih]

Which Macedonia, ancient or contemporary?

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

Macedonia was, is, and will always be Hellenic.

Hardly.

[Faísca]

Originally Posted by Timo

Please be more specific for us non-balkan posters. Which Issue with Macedonia are you talking about?

I suppose it is about FYROM, Greek Macedonia and Bulgarian Macedonia.

[Arjuna Durden]

hum, Macedonians of the FYROM seem to speak a dialect of Bulgarian, while most of the population is commonly classified as being of Slavic origin, is this not right? If this questions offer no further problems, the solution could be the re-editation of the Great Bulgary of the VIII and IX centuries.

Later on in the XIX century, as Bulgary emancipated itself from the Ottomans, its territory included today's FYROM from the 1876-78 until 1912, when it lost it to the Serbs in the Balkan wars, as shown in the pictures below:





As to ancient Macedonia, did Alexanders Macedonia reached to the territory of the present-day FYROM?

and can someone provide some detailed information about percentage of Hellenic desdendants among today's Macedonian Slavs?

[Awar]

Genetically speaking, the population of FYROM is predominantly local Balkanoid,
and closely related to other peoples in the area.

They adopted the Slavic language which isn't a dialect of Bulgarian, at least not
any more than Bulgarian is a dialect of Serbian. All Slavic languages are similar to one another, especially those which exist together in the neighbourhood.

The teritory on which FYROM exists, and also other states exist is called Macedonia
since ancient times.

Macedonians were most likely a Hellenic-speaking people, closely related to Greeks.

I don't see any continuity there so that FYROM-ians should claim descendance from Alexander the Great, at least not any more than any other closely related Balkan people.

[Archangelos]

The Macedonians were a Hellenic people in ancient times; today I believe that the people of FYROM are genetically related to the ancient Hellenic people of the region for the most part. They have just been slavised and now speak a Slavic tongue, which is a dialect of the Bulgarian language. The whole Macedonian question was born from the Communist Tito. The fact is that the people of FYROM can not call themselves Macedonians without excepting their Hellenic origins, to claim that Macedonians weren’t Hellenic or to continue speaking a Slavic Language, forfeits them from the right to claim Macedonian Heritage. They should instead join the rest of the Bulgaria.

[Zrinski]

Macedonians were not "Hellenic-speaking" people. From historic writtings we have available it is clear that macedonians were "barbarians" for Greeks and they spoke totally different language which obviously Greeks couldn't understand.

My personal opinion was that Macedonians were Illyrian-Thracian mix.

And yes ancient Macedonia did "reach" the teritory of FYROM. It consisted of today modern state of FYROM, huge parts of northern modern state of Greece and some small parts of today Bulgaria.

[Archangelos]

Zrinski, how can you claim such a thing? The only reason why anyone called the Macedonians, "Barbarians" wasnt because of race, but rather on a cultural level and Athenian politics.

If the Ancient Macedonians spoke a different language, rather then a Dorian Hellenic Dialect, how come archaeological discoveries all show us a Hellenic language?

How come Macedonians had Hellenic names and shared the same religion and architecture has the rest of the Hellenic people? Do you forget that Mt Olympos is located in Macedonia? Alittle odd for the home of the Gods to be in an area outside of Hellas, dont you think?

What about Macedonians taking part in the Olympic games, an honour, that only Hellenes could take part in?

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

They should instead join the rest of the Bulgaria.

Why, exactly? Because of the language they speak?
Their language is closely related to all other Slavic languages,
especially Serbian ( especially the southern dialects ), and Bulgarian.

Going with that logic, Norway should join Sweden.

[Timo]

It is my opinion, on the topic of the ancient Macedonians, that they were not seen as Hellenic by Greeks. They were seen as barbarians, like Thracians. The Macedonian kings, however, knew that Greece was the centre of European civilization, culture and learning at the time and they wanted to be part of it. They adopted much culture of the Greeks in the South. They later strengthen their tie with Greece when Alexander conquered most of greece and then went on to spread greek culture and language throughout the known world. The ancient Macedonians were Hellenophiles, and were not greek, only by adoption of greek culture did they become Hellenic or rather Hellenistic. If one would ask Plato if Macedonians were Greeks, he'd say they were not. Infact ethnocentrism was prevailent in ancient greek city-states, and they saw Macedonians as of a different ethnos.

"Macedonia" of Today is not in the same geographical location of ancient Macedon. I think they would be better classified as sub-type of Bulgarians. The current Macedonian has little in common with ancient ones.

[Archangelos]

I personally would like to see FYROM except their Hellenic roots and return the Hellenic nation, but this isnt going to happen. So why not let them join with Bulgaria or perhaps Serbia. A cant however, approve of them staying an independent nation.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Awar

Going with that logic, Norway should join Sweden.

Norwegian is West-Nordic and Swedish is East-Nordic.

[Archangelos]

On the origin of the Macedonians

The Greek origin of the Macedonians is proven by the vast majority of the ancient historians.
Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):

• "On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."
  
  
  On the language of the Macedonians
  The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)
  
  • "The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."
    
    What did the Macedonians think of themselves?
    
    In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:
    
    • "... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."
    Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)
    
    • "Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "
      
      What did the rest of the Greeks think?
      
      Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):
      
      
      • "Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."
        
      The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)
    • • "Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.

[Timo]

"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."

What total mythology, with no basis in reality. Do you actually believe he is a decendant of Heracles? What nonsense, it is like the ancient Viking kings claiming to be decendents of Odin or the Egyptian Pharaoh claiming to be Horus in human form.

[Archangelos]

The fact that they claim descent from Heracles, shows that they see themsevles as of Hellenic Origin.Connecting themselves with Hellenic 'Mythology' The Ancient Macedonians were a Dorian people.

When it comes to my belief system, dealing with Heracles if he was real or if he wasnt. Thats not really something to bring up under this thread.

[Timo]

All that shows is they adopted the culture of the Hellens and claimed devine heritage. I would like to see how they are Dorian and if you can get the ancient Macedonian language and show how it is greek.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Archangelos

[size=2]Zrinski, how can you claim such a thing? The only reason why anyone called the Macedonians, "Barbarians" wasnt because of race, but rather on a cultural level and Athenian politics.

I don't think so. Old Greeks called 'barbarians' only outsiders. Calling Macedonians 'barbarians' is obviously a sign that they were not Greeks or more correctly Hellenic.

If the Ancient Macedonians spoke a different language, rather then a Dorian Hellenic Dialect, how come archaeological discoveries all show us a Hellenic language?

Bcause Macedonians spoke Greek as anyone else at that time. The fact you can find sign in English in Croatia doesn't mean we are English.
Or even better example from Irish, Scots and Welsh who all speak English language due to their "anlglicization".

How come Macedonians had Hellenic names and shared the same religion and architecture has the rest of the Hellenic people? Do you forget that Mt Olympos is located in Macedonia? Alittle odd for the home of the Gods to be in an area outside of Hellas, dont you think?

It is actually believed that Greek mythology and religion was in fact "imported" from Macedonians and even Illyrians.

What about Macedonians taking part in the Olympic games, an honour, that only Hellenes could take part in?

There are numerous examples of non-greeks in "Olympic games".