Your Opinion On The Macedonian Issue

[LeukoLyko]

Originally Posted by Bograchev Mahil

That's some ancient greek, rather subjective interpretations. Irrespective of what they wrote 2000+ years ago, the topic here is about MODERN "macedonians". They are named so, after the ancient name of the region they occupy - Macedonia. That alone, scarcely makes them "dorian greek tribe" bearing in mind that they speak bulgarian dialect and genetically are indistinguishable from the average bulgarian.

MODERN MACEDONIANS ARE GREEK and I am one of them, they do not speak Bulgarian, they speak Greek. I refuse to acknowledge Asiatic interlopers living in the Former YugoSLAV "republic" of Makedonija as Macedonian, especially since they renamed Vardarksa into Makedonija in 1944 and killed 160,000 of my people to steal Macedonia from Greece. AND YES, MOUNT OLYMPUS IS IN MACEDONIA. If you want I can send you a half a euro to buy an atlas to see for yourself. Yes, I am a Dorian Greek and I don't take kindly to Slavs any Slav at all and that's a personal preference, not an insult. Behave like humans and I may forgive you, but I doubt you are capable of that.

[Bulair]

This thread should recieve the "Thread of the year" award.

[Blood Axis]

Originally Posted by Bulair

This thread should recieve the "Thread of the year" award.

That I second.

[Awar]

Originally Posted by LeukoLyko

Because that's what Slavs do - they murder people for land including each other - Serbs, Bosnians, Croats.

What a stupid argument. Find me ANY people on earth who never fought wars
with their neighbours for land.

The Slavs murder Alabanians and are trying to undermine Greeks - the most powerful nation in the Balkans. Despite the Jews helping them, their natural Slavic incompetence sees them living in Botswana-like conditions If I was cursed by God to be a Slav, I too would try my damnest to claim non-Slavic ancestry and what better ancestry than Greek - the founders of the greatest civilisation in the galaxy?

Actually, genetically speaking, most of the people in the Balkans
are of pre-Slavic origin, only speaking Slavic languages.

Need I also remind you that up to a few decades ago, the Greeks
were living in extremely poor conditions, much worse than any Slavic nation
lives in today.

Besides, the Slavic countries of the Balkans are quickly recovering from Communist rule, while others have a lower standard because of wars and sanctions.

Even in a language from the other edge of Europe - English, has words like Slav(e), (B)Vulgar, Turk as an insult. That should tell you a lot.

Yeah, it tells that there are similar words of different meaning in a lot of languages.

Or do you think Greeks are geeks, Germans are germs etc. etc.

[Awar]

Originally Posted by LeukoLyko

MODERN MACEDONIANS ARE GREEK and I am one of them, they do not speak Bulgarian, they speak Greek. I refuse to acknowledge Asiatic interlopers living in the Former YugoSLAV "republic" of Makedonija as Macedonian, especially since they renamed Vardarksa into Makedonija in 1944 and killed 160,000 of my people to steal Macedonia from Greece.

Ok, I suppose you have some proof to support these allegations.

1. You said the people of FYROM are Asiatic, which is clearly not true,
and I'll consider it an ad-gentum.

2. Unless you provide a written proof that 160.000 Greeks were killed
by the people of FYROM in 1944. I'll consider this trolling.

Your next few posts better be about this, or I'll start issuing warnings.

AND YES, MOUNT OLYMPUS IS IN MACEDONIA. If you want I can send you a half a euro to buy an atlas to see for yourself. Yes, I am a Dorian Greek and I don't take kindly to Slavs any Slav at all and that's a personal preference, not an insult. Behave like humans and I may forgive you, but I doubt you are capable of that.

One more ad-gentum. Slavic peoples are humans.
This one I'll adress with a warning immediately.

[Heretik]

Originally Posted by Bulair

This thread should recieve the "Thread of the year" award.

I think LeukoLyko should receive a ban.

[ddt]

Ancient Macedonians weren't exactly Greek ( -speaking ) ,at least the majority of people.The Macedonian nobles were only Greekphones.
Modern Macedonians are a Slavic ethnic group.

[General Parmenion]

The modern "Macedonians" are simply NOT Macedonians.They are slavs.The ancient Macedonians where Greeks.

[General Parmenion]

I am a Dorian Greek Macedonian and certainly the people of FYROM are not my "brothers".

[General Parmenion]

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

If you are not the ancestors of Alexander The Great
why you want to use his symbols his culture his name
his history and claim the whole Macedonian land as your own
when you only came in Macedonian land on the 6th century (A.D.)?

The historic truth is that the Slavs descended into the region not before the 6th century long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of Greece. They don't have any historical cultural or linguistic ties with ancient Macedonia and they would be really foolish if they officially claimed that they did. There is no historic or archaeological evidence connecting them with ancient Macedonia.

In any case occupying 10% of ancient Macedonian land does not give them the right to steal the Greek-Macedonian history and culture. The Macedonian civilization was part of the ancient Greek civilization. It is part of Greece's national inheritance and it can not be used by anyone else.

[Awar]

The people of FYROM are Slavicized Balkanoids.

[General Parmenion]

And here is how the ancient Persians called the Macedonians.....


The Macedonians wore a distinctive hat, the “kausia” (καυσία) (Polybius IV 4,5; Eustathius 1398; Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander, VII 22; cf. Sturz, Macedonian Dialect, 41) from the Greek word for heat that separated them from the rest of the Greeks. That is why the Persians called them “yauna takabara,” which meant “Greeks wearing the hat”. The Macedonian hat was very distinctive from the hats of the other Greeks, but the Persians did not distinguished the Macedonians, because the Macedonian speech was also Greek (Hammond, The Macedonian State p. 13 cf. J.M. Balcer, Historia, 37 [1988] 7).

GREEKS.....

[General Parmenion]

Furthermore.....

On the mountainsides of the Himalayas and the Indian Caucasus and under Pakistani and Afghanistan jurisdiction lives a tribe whose people call themselves Kalash. They claim to be the descendants of Alexander the Great’s soldiers who for various reasons were left behind in the depths of Asia and could not follow the Great General in his new conquests. Having no contact with the outside world for almost 23 centuries, they are quite different from any other neighboring nations. Light complexioned, and blue eyed in the midst of dark skinned neighbors, their language, even though it has been affected and influenced by the many Muslim languages of nations that surround the Kalash tribe, still incorporates vocabulary and has many elements of the ancient Greek language. They greet their visitors with "ispanta" from the Greek verb "ασπάζομαι" (greetings) and they warn them about "heman" from the ancient Greek noun "χειμών" (winter). These indigenous people still believe in the twelve Olympian gods and their architecture resembles very much the Macedonian architecture (National Herald, “A School in the Tribe of Kalash by Greeks", October 11, 1996).

Michael Wood, the British scholar in his In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great (p.8), quotes the following statement made by a Kalash named Kazi Khushnawaz:

Long long ago, before the days of Islam, Sikander e Aazem came to India. The Two Horned one whom you British people call Alexander the Great. (sic) He conquered the world, and was a very great man, brave and dauntless and generous to his followers. When he left to go back to Greece, some of his men did not wish to go back with him but preferred to stay here. Their leader was a general called Shalakash [Seleucus]. With some of his officers and men, he came to these valleys and they settled here and took local women, and here they stayed. We, the Kalash, the Black Kafir of the Hindu Kush, are the descendants of their children. Still some of our words are the same as theirs, our music and our dances, too; we worship the same gods. This is why we believe the Greeks are our first ancestors...

[Reltih]

Originally Posted by LeukoLyko

Even in a language from the other edge of Europe - English, has words like Slav(e), (B)Vulgar, Turk as an insult. That should tell you a lot.

The word "vulgar" has latin root and is in neither way connected with our ancestors -- nomadic asiatic Bolgars, who came in contact with latin-speaking peoples long after these peoples had used that word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vulgar

Word History: The word vulgar now brings to mind off-color jokes and offensive epithets, but it once had more neutral meanings. Vulgar is an example of pejoration, the process by which a word develops negative meanings over time. The ancestor of vulgar, the Latin word vulgris (from vulgus, “the common people”), meant “of or belonging to the common people, everyday,” as well as “belonging to or associated with the lower orders.” Vulgris also meant “ordinary,” “common (of vocabulary, for example),” and “shared by all.” An extension of this meaning was “sexually promiscuous,” a sense that could have led to the English sense of “indecent.” Our word, first recorded in a work composed in 1391, entered English during the Middle English period, and in Middle English and later English we find not only the senses of the Latin word mentioned above but also related senses. What is common may be seen as debased, and in the 17th century we begin to find instances of vulgar that make explicit what had been implicit. Vulgar then came to mean “deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement.” From such uses vulgar has continued to go downhill, and at present “crudely indecent” is among the commonest senses of the word.

Obviously it has nothing to do with early medieval central asian Bolgarian tribes. And as you can see its original meaning had no derogatory meaning.

But, since some not especially intelligent people (who tend to enjoy mental retardation) pretend that "Eire" derives from "aryan" and so on bs, you could built any theory you like using any linguistic similarities you like. For sure one could find plenty of such, in every two languages one could chose.




Also, the fact that f.e in English "vulgar" somewhat sounds like "bulgarian", comes from the poor or primitive sound fund of the english tongue, which doesn't allow it to reproduce in writting correctly the actual pronounciation of the name of our country and folk, which should sound like " Ba'lgaria " where a' is a sound close to mute, short, closed a, or may be somewhat between a and u.

However the sound impotence of the English tongue is well known. According to some speculators, that derives from the fact that early anglo-saxons were primitive, aggressive, almost mute barbarians with serious problems in articulate speech. Quite possibly that's the case but fortunately since those inarticulate, cave times, english has adopted enough foriegn, primarly latin influence, so that to become an almost intelligible language.

And what a irony we are using this primitive speech now to communicate with each other. But nowadays, ugly, foolish or filthy things are widespread like the american food and movies, english language, AIDS and paedophilia and so on. That's because people are on the whole foolish in every nation, country and continent and prefer to absorb the easy and primitive aspects of human culture.

[Awar]

Not to mention that all the neighbours of Bulgars call them "Bugari" and
their country "Bugarska", and it's a stretch to connect those names with the term "vulgar" which is also used but has a different sound.

[General Parmenion]

Language


<A href="http://www.macedonia.info/history.htm#PREHISTORIC">The Macedonians were a Dorian tribe, according to the testimony of Herodotus (1, 56): "(The Dorian ethnos) ... dwelt in Pindos, where it was called Makdnon; from there ... it came to the Peloponnesus, where it took the name of Dorian". And elsewhere (VIII, 43): "these (that is, the Lacedaimonians, Corinthians, Sikyonians etc.), except the people of Hermione, were of the Dorian and Makednon ethnos, and had most recently come from Erineos and Pindos and Dryopis". A Dorian tribe, then, that expanded steadily to the east of Pindos and far beyond, conquering areas in which dwelt other tribes, both Greek and non-Greek.

For many centuries, Macedonia remained on the fringe of the Greek world. In the mountainous regions of Macedonia, at least, the way of life will have consisted predominantly of transhumant pasturage. Education will, at best, have been confined to aristocratic circles and those connected with them. We do not, therefore, expect to find any written texts of a private nature from the Archaic period. In the rest of the Greek world, writing is related to the structure and mechanisms of the city-state, and is used mainly for the recording of justice in the broadest sense of the word. Under a monarchical regime like that of Macedonia, however, and in a world of nomads, we would hardly expect to find public documents.

At about the end of the 6th century BC, the changed socio-economic circumstances deriving from permanent settlement and the intensification of economic and cultural relations with the rest of the Greek world led to the creation of the preconditions for the use of writing, mainly for the purposes of diplomatic relations. The local dialect a member, as far as we can judge, of the group known as the north-west Greek dialects, which included Phokian, the Lokrian dialects, etc., had no written tradition, whether literary or other. Consequently, the rise of education and culture was to the detriment of the Macedonian speech. Attic was selected as the language of education, and the local dialect was "smothered" by the written language, the koine, and was never, or hardly ever, written down, being restricted to oral communication between Macedonians. From as early as the time of Alexander the Great, moreover, Macedonian lost ground to the koine in this sphere too, if we are to believe the historical sources, and there is certainly no evidence that it was spoken in the centuries after Christ. Only its memory was perpetuated through the use of personal names until the 4th century AD

Although very little of the Macedonian tongue has survived, there is no doubt that it was a Greek dialect. This is clear from a whole series of indications and linguistic phenomena by which the koine of the region is "colored" which are not Attic but which can only have derived from a Greek dialect. For example: The vast majority of even the earliest names, whether dynastic names or not, are Greek, formed from Greek roots and according to Greek models: Hadista, Philista, Sostrata, Philotas, Perdikkas, Machatas and hundreds of others. In general, the remnants of the Macedonian dialect that have come down to us have a completely different character from Ionic. This circumstance is patent proof that there can be no question of the ancient Macedonians having been Hellenized, as has been asserted (Karst), for such Hyalinization could have been only by the Greek colonies on the Macedonian coast, in which the Ionian element was predominant (Beloch).

The fact that Roman and Byzantine lexicographers and grammarians cited examples from Macedonian in order to interpret particular features of the Homeric epics must mean that Macedonian - or rather, what survived of Macedonian at the period in question - was a very archaic dialect, and preserved features that had disappeared from the other Greek dialects; it would be absurd to suggest that these scholars, in their commentaries on the Homeric poems, might have compared them with a non-Greek language. The name given to the Macedonian cavalry - hetairoi tou basileos - "the King's Companions" - is also indicative: this occurs only in Homer, and was preserved in the historical period only amongst the Macedonians.

The anonymous compiler of the Etymologicum Magnum notes in the entry on Aphrodite, probably adopting a comment by the earlier grammarian Didymos: "V is akin to F. This is clear from the fact that the Macedonians call Philip "Vilip" and pronounce falakros [bald] "valakros" the Phrygians "Vrygians" and the winds (fysitas) "vyktas". Homer refers to "vyktas anemous" (blowing winds). Observations of this type abound. Male and female names occur in Macedonian ending in -as and -a, where in Attic we have -es and -e: Alketas, Amyntas, Hippotas, Glauka, Eurydika, Andromacha, and dozens more. A feature bequeathed by Macedonian to the koine and also to Modern Greek is the genitive of so-called first declension masculine nouns in -a: Kallia, Teleutia, Pausanea (the Attic ending was -ou). The long alpha is retained in the middle of words (as in all dialects other than Ionic-Attic dialects): Damostratos, Damon etc. and Iaos" rather than the "Ieos" of Ionic Attic, is used to form compounds, occurring as both the first and the second element. The koine of Macedonia, for all its conservatism and dialect coloring, follows a parallel path to the koine of other regions, though not always at the same moment in time. Whatever the case, all the changes that marked the Greek language in general and the north Greek dialects in particular, can be followed in the inscriptions of Macedonia.

[General Parmenion]

"Clearly, the language of the ancient Macedonians was Greek"
{Prof. John C. Roumans Professor Emeritus of Classics Wisconsin University}

[General Parmenion]

"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
` {John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the Great", 2nd ed.(1913)


"There is no doubt, that Macedonians were Greeks."
(Robin Lane Fox "Historian-Author" In Interview with newspaper TO BHMA)