Western European civilization not connected to Ancient Greece

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Point being?

It was a quid pro quo situation.

And shame on you! I always defended Southern Europeans against rants of Nordicists, every one can look it up and read it, I didn't read the above of untile it already was reported

And I've always recognised you for this.

I don't think that there is a solution to this. The more I learn about it, the more that I see how unfair it is for everyone. But also the more that I get convinced that it is a sickness that cannot be cured.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by MR

So I did.

Nah, you have an infraction still standing don’t you?

Again accusing someone of what you do yourself.

Empty talk, whats simplistic about my argumentation? Care to have the burden of proof on this, you have it already on you the entire discussion, yet you fail to live up to yet, no shit no?

My nation is being destroyed by multiculturalism, yet I see people who don't have a problem with it an don't complain. I mean what kind of "argument" is that, why would I honestly care about you or your countries businesses with French?

Inconsistent, I merely demonstrated you that you can be civil, regardless of non web related politics.

Again, accusation based on nothing. Why am I not surprised?

Non valid reasoning, like I said, the staff, including me, gives the interpretation to the rules, and by that interpretation you weren't civil against an ethnic European group.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Nah, you have an infraction still standing don’t you?

Just because you were abusing moderator position because you are too emotional about the discussion here, doesn't mean I didn't "follow rules".

Empty talk, whats simplistic about my argumentation?

I commented it further in post.

Care to have the burden of proof on this, you have it already on you the entire discussion, yet you fail to live up to yet, no shit no?

More accusations based on nothing.

Inconsistent, I merely demonstrated you that you can be civil, regardless of non web related politics.

Hardly. Again, I don't care about you nor your countries businesses, hard to understand?

Non valid reasoning, like I said, the staff, including me, gives the interpretation to the rules, and by that interpretation you weren't civil against an ethnic European group.

The staff is you and only you? You are the only one who seem to agree with it (from the staff and the forum as whole).

[Agrippa]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

A. I wasn't talking of ethnos, Agrippa, but of civilization, that is urban civilization. Of course, Ancient Greeks were IE-speakers.

I think an urban civilisation is the result of certain processes in the structure of tribes and settlements, therefore I dont think a city is something that special. Furthermore the Greeks were not urban in a modern sense - at least most of them were not. Might I refer to Sparta or other great cities of Greece. Their civilisation however was urban largely, thats true, and in that we can see many pre-IE influences, whats not good nor bad, just a fact.

B. The Greeks aren't pure IE, Greeks were the result of the fusion between IE and non-IE substratum and superstratum.

Well, we dont know "how pure" other Indoeuropean people were or are, since we did just roughly identify Proto-IE. Among those we can see certain variants of racial forms as well as we can speculate about certain genetic traits they had, though we can't know with absolute certainty. In any case other IE mixed too, thats why they became Celts, Germanics, Italics, Indo-Iranians etc. and were no relatively homogenous (if we assume they were at a time) Proto-IE any more, at least one of the reasons. So whats that different with Greeks on that? They probably had an even lower percentage of original racial, genetic and cultural IE-traits, than lets say Germanics or Celts, but still enough to qualify them as what they were, an IE people - though on the fringes and with an early development on their own, with a heavy influence from the pre-IE civilisation bearers of the region.

D. Ah ah, this is so true! Though only the bourgeois of the wealthy city centers are idealized Greeks. The suburbians would be much more a mixture of Germanic, Scythian and Numidian barbarians.

Is that so much different from ancient Greece? The slaves and simple farmers of Athen, the helots of Sparta etc., do you think they were all like Socrates or Aristoteles? Little Perikles' and Solon? Hardly. If we deal with that kind of higher culture, we always deal primarily with a certain portion of the people in question. And in the end, the classic education was probably much more widespread and of course on a much higher level intellectually at least, in 19th century England, France or Germany, than it ever was percentage wise among the Greek speaking populations of ancient Greece we can assume.
Literacy alone...

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by MR

Just because you were abusing moderator position because you are too emotional about the discussion here, doesn't mean I didn't "follow rules".

Sure it did, you have an infraction don't you? See that, thats you being wrong

More empty accusations.

Stay in school to learn the definition of accusation, and what burden of proof contains.

Hardly. Again, I don't care about you nor your countries businesses, hard to understand?

Even if I would spell it out you wouldn’t comprehend the intention.

The staff is you and only you? You are the only one who seem to agree with it (from the staff and the forum as whole).

I wrote including me. 'Including' is that a big word for you?

[M.R.]

So you're on repeat mode again Waar?

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by M.R.

So you're on repeat mode again Waar?

Consistent repeating is an acknowledged tool within the school of behaviourism, they use it to learn correct handling and coherent behaviour, among others to young children, them having a tabula rasa waiting and needing to be filled with correct data and handling regarding reality.

You already learned some stuff Im sure, like the word 'including', thats a victory, good for you I would say. And now you also know that Christianity and its early reality in Europe was one of oppression of diverse philosophical schools, resulting in the lose of a great amount of knowledge, why.. you ask? Because data simply says so! And even more why, because in science something is true as long its observed and as long its not undermined, and that you failed to do, so per definition its true, I provided data, you provided shit, you lose.

[M.R.]

[Delbáeth]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Consistent repeating is an acknowledged tool within the school of behaviourism, they use it to learn correct handling and coherent behaviour, among others to young children, them having a tabula rasa waiting and needing to be filled with correct data and handling regarding reality.

You already learned some stuff Im sure, like the word 'Including', thats a victory, good for you I would say. And now you also know that Christianity and its early reality in Europe was one of oppression of diverse philosophical schools, resulting in the lose of a great amount of knowledge, why you ask? Because data simply says so! And even more why, because in science something is true as long its observed and as long its not undermined, and that you failed to do, so per definition its true, I provided data, you provided shit, you lose.

Please! Christianity preserved a vast majority of the data of our ancient peoples, in fact, most of what we do know, and we do know alot, comes from early Christian writers.

The fact that some people may indeed have had a bad stint with Christianity in the beginning, doesn't mean everyone else did.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Delbáeth

Please! Christianity preserved a vast majority of the data of our ancient peoples, in fact, most of what we do know, and we do know alot, comes from early Christian writers.

The fact that some people may idneed have had a bad stint with Christianity in the beginning, doesn't mean everyone else did.

It were Greeks fleeing to Persia in Justinian's time that preserved most philosophical texts. And under the rule of Theodosius and the state religion many libraries were destroyed out of irrationality, the few things we know about certain schools is because Christian thinkers gave their criticism, thats not an act of preserving for the love of knowledge.

700,000 books of literature, philosophy, history and science were destroyed in Alexandria, Delbaeth, whats your defintion of preserving??

In case of Germanic countries, decline of what? Before Christianization and introduction of Roman and Greek civilization, you were living in huts and worship trees! Such ungratitude!

So Rome had the right to tell others how to live? Reminds me of a similiar modern situation that everyone he claims to be against.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Is that so much different from ancient Greece? The slaves and simple farmers of Athen, the helots of Sparta etc., do you think they were all like Socrates or Aristoteles? Little Perikles' and Solon? Hardly. If we deal with that kind of higher culture, we always deal primarily with a certain portion of the people in question. And in the end, the classic education was probably much more widespread and of course on a much higher level intellectually at least, in 19th century England, France or Germany, than it ever was percentage wise among the Greek speaking populations of ancient Greece we can assume.
Literacy alone...

Agrippa, I know that. That's why I wrote idealized Greeks, the "perfect" but still largely fake image that the European XIXth century made of the Greeks.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by ColdT

So Rome had the right to tell others how to live? Reminds me of a similiar modern situation that everyone he claims to be against.

We are not speaking here of who had "right" to what, just discussing some historical events putting them in a larger context.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

I think an urban civilisation is the result of certain processes in the structure of tribes and settlements, therefore I dont think a city is something that special.

I think not. I think city is the very antithesis to tribal living and mentality. You have people from different tribes engaged in a common purpose, forming a community and worshipping some new patron-deity, different form any of those of the original tribes they came from. City is a form of detachment from the more "natural" way of life as is that in communities founded solely on the basis of kinship. Of course, the sense of sacred is present in the city as it is in the tribal community. I am not speaking though of modern "cosmpopolitan" cities, where the concept of community and sacred is entirely lacking, being they products of this ugly modern world and society, which is perverted in every conceivable sense.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Furthermore the Greeks were not urban in a modern sense - at least most of them were not. Might I refer to Sparta or other great cities of Greece. Their civilisation however was urban largely, thats true, and in that we can see many pre-IE influences, whats not good nor bad, just a fact.

Their civilization was both urban and rural. Of course, not urban in modern sense, because there is no more such a thing as concept of community. In ancient Greece man was not conceived outside of his polis, the modern individualism having not yet come into existence.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Well, we dont know "how pure" other Indoeuropean people were or are, since we did just roughly identify Proto-IE. Among those we can see certain variants of racial forms as well as we can speculate about certain genetic traits they had, though we can't know with absolute certainty. In any case other IE mixed too, thats why they became Celts, Germanics, Italics, Indo-Iranians etc. and were no relatively homogenous (if we assume they were at a time) Proto-IE any more, at least one of the reasons. So whats that different with Greeks on that? They probably had an even lower percentage of original racial, genetic and cultural IE-traits, than lets say Germanics or Celts, but still enough to qualify them as what they were, an IE people - though on the fringes and with an early development on their own, with a heavy influence from the pre-IE civilisation bearers of the region.

Greeks underwent a very profound influence from the pre-Hellenic or pre-Indo-European peoples and cultures. It is visibly in religion, culture, arts and in many loan-words, words present in the ancient Greek language, but for which no correspondents in other Indo-European languages can be found.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Is that so much different from ancient Greece? The slaves and simple farmers of Athen, the helots of Sparta etc., do you think they were all like Socrates or Aristoteles? Little Perikles' and Solon?

Of course they werent all Platos and Aristoteles. It is precisely an idealized image of ancient Greeks that has been present in Europe since the Renaissance on, that made us think in such naive ways. It is curious that this idealized vision of the ancient Greeks was created by Western Europe and not by the Byzantines themselves, who were the direct linguistic and cultural descendants of the old Greeks, in an uninterrupted continuity. The Byzantines (Romaeans) are those we owe the preservation of Greek texts to, but they are not creators of the idealized view of ancient Hellas.

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Hardly. If we deal with that kind of higher culture, we always deal primarily with a certain portion of the people in question. And in the end, the classic education was probably much more widespread and of course on a much higher level intellectually at least, in 19th century England, France or Germany, than it ever was percentage wise among the Greek speaking populations of ancient Greece we can assume.

We are speaking here about different matters. In Greek times classical culture had other meaning than that in 19th century Europe. They did not have a concept of "Classical cu