Western European civilization not connected to Ancient Greece

[Skeptikos Examiner]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

Many Greek nationalists would argue that western philosophy based on the classics is actually a corruption and is only loosely and in the wrong ways linked to the classic theories of Plato and others.

Western philosophy was perverted by Christianity but so was the philosophy of the Greeks in the end. A corruption which already started in the Roman-Greek world with the arrival of Christianity. For example it was the Roman church in Rome which closed down the Platonic schools in Athens.

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

Again Rome was destroyed and western europe abondoned Roman influence soon after it's destruction. It's only around the time of the renaissance that their was a resurgence in beliefs based on the Romans and even then they weren't the same as Romans viewed it. The only nation in western Europe who can claim links to Roman Civilization is Italy.

Roman civilization was destroyed by Christianity and its degenerative effects from within and it were those Christian believes which dominated western Europe up to the renaissance.

[Skeptikos Examiner]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

I don't consider western europe of the dark ages to be in any way connected to rome civilization.

And it is not connected to Germanic civilization either, the dark ages had their roots in the restrictive and dogmatic nature of the Christian religion which originated in the Roman world.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

The only nation in western Europe who can claim links to Roman Civilization is Italy.

Well, depends on what part of Italy. For instance, why would Northern Italy (Gallia Cisalpina) have more right to claim a link to Roman Civilization than Southern France (Gallia Narbonensis). Because the latter is Italian and the former is not?
I should recall that Gallia Cisalpina was romanized, so was Gallia Narbonensis. Then, if it's about civilization, and overall that, then Provence has a right to claim a link too.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

Western philosophy was perverted by Christianity but so was the philosophy of the Greeks in the end. A corruption which already started in the Roman-Greek world with the arrival of Christianity. For example it was the Roman church in Rome which closed down the Platonic schools in Athens.
[...]
Roman civilization was destroyed by Christianity and its degenerative effects from within and it were those Christian believes which dominated western Europe up to the renaissance.

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

And it is not connected to Germanic civilization either, the dark ages had their roots in the restrictive and dogmatic nature of the Christian religion which originated in the Roman world.

I understand your argument but I have difficulty imagining the alternate Europe which would have arisen without the Christian Church. What would a non-Christian Europe be like?

[Pro Hibernia]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I understand your argument but I have difficulty imagining the alternate Europe which would have arisen without the Christian Church. What would a non-Christian Europe be like?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

Western philosophy was perverted by Christianity but so was the philosophy of the Greeks in the end. A corruption which already started in the Roman-Greek world with the arrival of Christianity. For example it was the Roman church in Rome which closed down the Platonic schools in Athens.

Let us start by saying that the adjectivation of "western" is gratuitous in so far as it tricks people into believing that vast peoples who were back then primitivistic tribal societies (in comparison to the Hellenic society of the moment) get a free and undeserved ride into it. And worse, some even get as far as to make bizarre speculations.

Roman civilization was destroyed by Christianity and its degenerative effects from within and it were those Christian believes which dominated western Europe up to the renaissance.

This is an example of the speculations that I was referrring to, right above. Where, in a spit, the decadence inherent to a Civilization which had come of an age and which it had grown beyond the physical limits of which it could reasonably govern without an inner renovation, and where the old beliefs had grown old and weak, it gets blamed in the only force which provided some renovation though unfortunately too late since its borders were already being overrun by hordes of aliens.

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

And it is not connected to Germanic civilization either, the dark ages had their roots in the restrictive and dogmatic nature of the Christian religion which originated in the Roman world.

Sure, Germanics were just "passing by".

And yet one only has to look at what Visigothic Spain, for example, produced since: stagnation. Well, not fair. It produced much more than that: a never ending series of blood baths of civil wars, regicides, corruption, incompetence, ... Menéndez y Pelayo goes much further but I don't think that it should be necessary to copy it here. And of course the result of it all is well known.

I can almost see how in a few hundred years from today, the descendent of some Pakistanis, Moroccans or Turks who migrated in this age into Europe, will make a similar discourse, arrogantly discharging Islamics from the ruin in which Europe fell in the 21st century and blaming it again to Christianity.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Delbáeth

Nonsense, the fact is that Christianity destroyed much of the accomplishments of the classic Hellenistic world for the fact of the contradiction of the naturalist idea with their own doctrine. Schools of materialistic philosophy like the Epicurean were closed and yet it’s the philosophy of materialism that brought us a ground for many scientific principles, but they contradicted with the dogma so they had to go. To draw a conclusion to the rise of Christianity is that of a destructive event for Europe, Greece, Rome and the barbarian people of the north, it pulled us into a dark age only to shed it off by humanism, freethought and materialism.

... We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.

The Code of Justinian; 529-534 CE

In the pre-Christian Roman world there was freedom of religion, with Christianity as a state religion this disappeared. Its not really unreasonable to say that religious wars and aggression on religious doctrine came with the monotheistic, Abrahamic dogma’s. There are many arguments for Christianity to have been fatal for Rome's and Europe's development and now Islam is already within our gates.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Well, depends on what part of Italy. For instance, why would Northern Italy (Gallia Cisalpina) have more right to claim a link to Roman Civilization than Southern France (Gallia Narbonensis). Because the latter is Italian and the former is not?
I should recall that Gallia Cisalpina was romanized, so was Gallia Narbonensis. Then, if it's about civilization, and overall that, then Provence has a right to claim a link too.

In the West, Hispania, Gallia Cisalpina and Transalpina (especially the Narbonensis) and even Britannia gave outstanding figures to Rome who were instrumental to its unparalleled grandeur.

However, true, I believe that two macro-identities were already distinguised in the Roman Empire: one Western and another Eastern. And it was the Western that took the bulk of destruction, while the Eastern sat in a more comfortable and protected scenario. While the West was being overrun by northern tribes, the lines of defense were being moved towards the East and the Empire left the West in the "protection" of the same peoples who were overruning it.

[Hyperion]

The fact is that Western civilization has nothing to do with ancient Greece, the ancient Roman Empire, or with the Eastern Roman Empire. Rather, Western civilization is based on Germanic civilization. The majority of Western peoples are, to one extent or another, Germanic peoples. The few who aren't came to be in the Western sphere of influence through invasion, long-term occupation, and extirpation of their native cultures by Germanic peoples.

Erm... With the same logic, there is not Greaco-Roman culture, since the Romans occupied Greece...
However, the Romans, took over Greece and assimilated the Greek civilization and the relevant aspects of it...
Nevertheless assimilation in this context does not necesarilly means to give up your culture in favor of another or destroy the culture of the people you occupy.
The Romans had their own culture (thow similar with the Greek one even before the occupation due to the proximity of Rome and the other Greek colonies in Italy) and "mixed" it with the Greek.
Thus the "Graeco-Roman" culture was borned.
Following the same logic, the Germanics did overrun the Western Empire and assimilated the Roman culture.
Therefore, we can say that the Germano/Roman culture evolved to what we know today as "Western Civilization".
(In brief: the Germanics took Over Rome, assimilated the Roman culture, which is a combination of the Roman and Greek civilization etc etc etc...)

I hope I made myself clear

This hijacking of Greco-Roman civilization by the Germanic West and the Greek collaboration to legitimize it has led to a break in Greece's social evolution and historical experience, undoubtedly playing a major role in Greece's self-destructive Europhilia, if not Euromania. Until Greece rejects this unnatural and completely artificial rift in its evolution and corrects it by reverting to its organic stage of development, the nation will never make any sort of progress.

As Greek, I will agree with you on that our "Xenomania" (Xenos = Foreign) and Euromania is one of the reasons that we are in this ubsurd position in regard to social, political and even cultural terms.
Oh well... History is a circle innit?

[Menydh]

I guess that the next that we'll have to hear is of a "germano-romance" construct. Oh my!

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

...

In the pre-Christian Roman world there was freedom of religion, with Christianity as a state religion this disappeared. Its not really unreasonable to say that religious wars and aggression on religious doctrine came with the monotheistic, Abrahamic dogma’s. There are many arguments for Christianity to have been fatal for Rome's and Europe's development and now Islam is already within our gates.

When it comes to the modern era I have to agree with you.

I'd like to believe the Churches will return to the role they once had as pillars and guardians of our civilization but I see very little evidence they are doing so.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

Nonsense, the fact is that Christianity destroyed much of the accomplishments of the classic Hellenistic world for the fact of the contradiction of the naturalist idea with their own doctrine. Schools of materialistic philosophy like the Epicurean where closed and yet it’s the philosophy of materialism that brought us a ground for many scientific principles, but they contradicted with the dogma so they had to go.

Epicurus lived about 350 years before the start of the Christian Era. The Hellenistic Period finished before the birth of Christ.

Well before the rising of Christianism (Constantine), philosophy and thought production in the Graeco-Roman world had stagnated substantially.

However, in Eastern Christendom (Byzantium) they continued preserving the Graeco-Roman heritage and there was even some production. Unlike in Western Christendom. Do you know what the differences between the two were? Well, for one Eastern Christendom had not been overrun by you know who... yet.

To draw a conclusion to the rise of Christianity is that of a destructive event for Europe, Greece, Rome and the barbarian people of the north

You forgot to add to the list the berbers of the south and the aborigines of Australia.

it pulled us into a dark age only to shed it off by humanism, freethought and materialism.

Surely the irruption of hordes of barbarians razing entires cities with its schools and libraries, villages and communications, was merely incidential.

Not to mention that it is precisely the materialism that you so much praise (such as Marxism and Capitalism) that is bringing us down.. once again.

The reading that you do of history is suspiciously similar in style to the one of Marxian historians. And your arguments against Christendom are terribly similar to those of Islamicist proselitists.

In the pre-Christian Roman world there was freedom of religion, with Christianity as a state religion this disappeared.

There was "assimilation" of religions. If a religious group refused to be added to the Pantheon, it was persecuted. But if it was added, it lost its nature.

Its not really unreasonable to say that religious wars and aggression on religious doctrine came with the monotheistic, Abrahamic dogma’s.

Such as the so-called Albigensian crusade? Was it religion or was it a king descendent of the Franks preying over the early sprout of cultural renaissance of the Romance Occitans?

That had nothing to do with "Abrahamic" dogmas. But please, don't make me tell what "ic" dogmas it had to do with.

There are many arguments for Christianity to have been fatal for Rome's and Europe's development and now Islam is already within our gates.

For more arguments, all you have to do is to keep visiting Islamic sites, copy & pasting the texts, and replacing where it says "enlightened Islam" with your "enlightened materialism".

You know, there was a time when Europe had a strong sense of spirituality. And that made them overcome crisis such as previous Muslim invasions. It may not ring the bell to you, but just in case say the Moors and the Ottomans.

We'll see how far we get this time, with the materialist world that you worship. It is not to Muslims that you will wave good-bye.

[Skeptikos Examiner]

Originally Posted by Errigal

I understand your argument but I have difficulty imagining the alternate Europe which would have arisen without the Christian Church. What would a non-Christian Europe be like?

An open and beautiful place still admiring what is strong and natural instead of what is weak and hollow. Pagan civilization build Europe as a beacon of light and than came Christianity which brought us the dark ages and crippled our development for over a thousand years!

Originally Posted by NatVox

Let us start by saying that the adjectivation of "western" is gratuitous in so far as it tricks people into believing that vast peoples who were back then primitivistic tribal societies (in comparison to the Hellenic society of the moment) get a free and undeserved ride into it. And worse, some even get as far as to make bizarre speculations.

The Greeks were just as primitive organized in tribal societies before the arrival of foreigners around 1500B.C. The Greeks took civilization and knowledge over from the Egyptians, the Romans took over from the Greek and the Germanic people from the Romans. Western civilzation is not something that was developed at one place by one people, what we call western civilzation is the development of different people in different places at different times.

Originally Posted by NatVox

This is an example of the speculations that I was referrring to, right above. Where, in a spit, the decadence inherent to a Civilization which had come of an age and which it had grown beyond the physical limits of which it could reasonably govern without an inner renovation, and where the old beliefs had grown old and weak, it gets blamed in the only force which provided some renovation though unfortunately too late since its borders were already being overrun by hordes of aliens.

Rome was always decadent, that is true and it did not start with Christianity. But Christianity made it worse! The Christians believes are simply incompatible with what is required to run an empire. Weakness, forgiveness, humility, those are traits slaves should hold! Christianity alienated the people from themselves, from their surroundings, and from the Roman empire. It created a passive slave mentality which could not resist the strong spirit driving the Germanic people.

Originally Posted by NatVox

Sure, Germanics were just "passing by".

No, they did not just pass by, it was a war of defense to defend our way of life against Rome which started the war by invading our territory. But it is doubtful that my ancestors could have beaten an internally united Roman empire still driven by spirit.