Polish Nobility and Its Heraldry: An Introduction

[bocian]

http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

Lots of info.

[Sok]

Howdy, Bocian. It is I, Aria88. I attempted to register that as my username, but was told that it already existed, though I don't believe that true. Good link (Polish nobility).
AWAR invited me, much thanks. Not sure if I'll stick around. I'm not really a "forum kind of guy." I did find Slavanthro to be incredibly comfortable and cozy, as it were. Think Terglow will ever get it back up again?

[Sok]

Hey, can I get a Confederate flag? Not that there Yankee rag.

[Sok]

I didn't read the entire article, but I can't recall seeing any mention of the prototypes for medieval heraldry: Sarmatian tamgas.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Sok

I didn't read the entire article, but I can't recall seeing any mention of the prototypes for medieval heraldry: Sarmatian tamgas.

Polish heraldry isn't an exact science, not to mention that anything 'Sarmatian-Polish' is usually frowned upon by academics.

There most probably was a Sarmatian (Alan) influence in Poland, and maybe some people actually did descend from Sarmatians, but certainly not to the extent that the gentry of a few hunderd years back would have liked us to believe.

[Sok]

No argument there. Just that it is more than plausable that tamgas were the origin of all medieval heraldry, as the Alanic-Sarmatian colonization was considerable in France, Spain, N Italy, etc. It is certain that they were responsible for the foundation of medieval armor, heavy cavalry, chivalry and to some degree, Romanesque (pre-Gothic) art. Much that is labeled "Gothic," even by scholars, was in reality Alanic.

[bocian]

It would be foolish to deny any influence.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Sok

Much that is labeled "Gothic," even by scholars, was in reality Alanic.

Thats interesting...maybe that would explain why Croats were mistaken for Goths when they were arriving at the Adriatic Coast. Very interesting.

[Sok]

Indeed. Zrinski, you are probably familiar with the premise that the Hrvati/Croats of the 6th-8th centuries CE were a tribe of Slavic-Sarmatian synthesis. The nobility/military aristocracy were at first wholly Sarmatian. The Slavic element gradually came to dominate over the centuries until the S~ component was largely forgotten, as in several other European locales (e.g. Brittany).

I have the recent King Arthur movie, and though the acting and screenplay were somewhat cliched, I was quite pleased with the attempt to give a (compacted) historical treatment to the myth/legend/historical truth. I am convinced, by reading From Scythia to Camelot by Littleton & Malcor and Arthur the Dragon KIng by Reid, that the most crucial aspects of the story were of Sarmatian-Alanic genesis.

[Sok]

Oh, and a reason why Croats/Alans could have been mistaken for Goths was because Alans & Goths were often allied. A 5th c. royal appellation was "King of the Goths and Alans." As the Alans lost their Iranian language and eventually identity, as well, what was remembered by commentators was only the Teutonic Goths. Alas.

[bocian]

Originally Posted by Sok

Indeed. Zrinski, you are probably familiar with the premise that the Hrvati/Croats of the 6th-8th centuries CE were a tribe of Slavic-Sarmatian synthesis. The nobility/military aristocracy were at first wholly Sarmatian. The Slavic element gradually came to dominate over the centuries until the S~ component was largely forgotten, as in several other European locales (e.g. Brittany).

I have the recent King Arthur movie, and though the acting and screenplay were somewhat cliched, I was quite pleased with the attempt to give a (compacted) historical treatment to the myth/legend/historical truth. I am convinced, by reading From Scythia to Camelot by Littleton & Malcor and Arthur the Dragon KIng by Reid, that the most crucial aspects of the story were of Sarmatian-Alanic genesis.

There are some similarities to Boleslaw and his Knights:

When King Boleslaw died, Poland lost a very able and brave ruler, one who had united her and made her into a really great country.

One legend claims that Boleslaw, and his Knights who fought with him for he was a great warrior and earned his title of the Brave, by routing Poland's enemies he went into a mountain called Giewont. This mountain forms part of the Tatra mountain range, and its shape, if seen from a certain angle, is like the head of a sleeping Knight.

Within the mountain is a huge dark cavern and there sleeps King Boleslaw and his Knights. They are mounted on horses, with their swords, bow and lances beside them. And if Poland ever needs them, then some one must awake them, and they will ride forth to serve the Polish nation.

But once they have gone forth, they will never return.

This story is very similar to the English legend about King Arthur, who supposedly sleeps under Glastonbury Tor in England.

[bocian]

Aria, see any similarities?

Long ago in Poland?s early history, On the River Vistula, there was a small settlement of wooden huts inhabited by peaceful people who farmed the land and plied their trades. Near this village was Wawel Hill. In the side of Wawel Hill was a deep cave. The entrance was overgrown with tall, grass, bushes, and weeds. No man had ever ventured inside that cave, and some said that a fearsome dragon lived within it. The young people of the village didn?t believe in the dragon. The old people of the village said that they had heard their fathers tell of a dragon who slept in the cave, and no man must dare waken it, or there would be dire consequences for them all. Some of the youths decided to explore the cave and put an end to such foolish talk. They thought that they knew better and dragons were just old stories from the past. A group of these young people took some torches and went to the cave. They slowly entered the cave until they came to a dark mass of scales blocking their way and the sound of heavy breathing. The boys ran as the dragon awakened and roared. Fire came from it?s mouth warming the boys heels and backs. When they were far enough away, they looked back and saw the dragon at the entrance of the cave, very angry being awakened from it?s sleep. From that day on, the people knew no peace. Every day the dragon appeared and carried off a sheep or preferably young virgins. The populace made many attempts to kill the dragon but nothing succeeded and many of those that attempted were killed. The hero in this part of the story differs. In the village lived a wise man, or a shoemaker or a shoe makers apprentice named Krakus or Krac. He got some sheep and mixed a thick, yellow paste from sulfur. Krakus smeared it all over the animals. Then led them to a place where the dragon would see them. The dragon came out as expected, saw the sheep, roared, rushed down the hill and devoured the sheep. The dragon had a terrible fire within him, and a terrible thirst. It rushed to the River Vistula and started drinking. It drank and drank and could not stop. The dragon began to swell, but still it drank more and more. It went on drinking till suddenly there was a great explosion, and the dragon burst. There was great rejoicing by the people. Krakus, was made ruler of the village, and they built a stronghold on Wawel Hill. The country prospered under the rule of Krakus and a city grew up around the hill which was called Krakow, in honour of Krakus. When Krakus died, the people gave him a magnificent burial, and erected a mound over his tomb which can be seen to this day. The people brought earth with their own hands to the mound, and it has endured through all the centuries as a memorial to the person that killed the dragon of Krakow.

The large 200-foot-long cave in Wawel Hill, Krakow, which has been known for centuries as the monster?s den, now attracts thousands of visitors each year. Whatever the truth of the dragon legend, the Dragon?s Cave (Polish ?Smocza Jama?) is Cracow?s oldest residence, inhabited by man from the Stone Age through the 16th century.

Sorry for all the stupid question marks, something to do with encoding and opera. This always happens when I copy&paste.

[Zrinski]

I found this site with very interesting small esseys on Slavs, this one is mostly about "Polish Slavs" and Slavs that lived in area of todays Poland.

http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.va...el/slavs2.html

This map is very interesting as well:

[Antiquarian]

Originally Posted by Sok

Oh, and a reason why Croats/Alans could have been mistaken for Goths was because Alans & Goths were often allied. A 5th c. royal appellation was "King of the Goths and Alans." As the Alans lost their Iranian language and eventually identity, as well, what was remembered by commentators was only the Teutonic Goths. Alas.

I think you mean the King of the Vandals and Alans.

[Aristotle]

EYTYXEITE!
Upon travelling in Poland I was wondering how really noble was the Polish People. Its noble nature was discovered inside the rooms and corridors of Jasna Goura where everything, ever a single corner, reflects the rules and the spirit of Heraldry!
Thank you Bocian for the very informative site!

Originally Posted by bocian

http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

Lots of info.

[Sok]

Ah, yes. Vandals and Alans. I knew that didn't look right. Thanks. They made a grand tour of Western Europe and crossed over to Northern Africa. Apart from the fact that N Africa has, at least until recent times, been populated by Caucasoids, a possible reason why Algeria has some of the fairest pre-colonial elements in the continent would be the early medieval diaspora of Vandals and Alans.

[Sok]

Yes, Bocian, I am familiar with the legend of Krakus. Thanks.

[Antiquarian]

Originally Posted by Sok

Ah, yes. Vandals and Alans. I knew that didn't look right. Thanks. They made a grand tour of Western Europe and crossed over to Northern Africa. Apart from the fact that N Africa has, at least until recent times, been populated by Caucasoids, a possible reason why Algeria has some of the fairest pre-colonial elements in the continent would be the early medieval diaspora of Vandals and Alans.

North Africa was Caucasoid since Iberomaurusian and Capsian times, at least if you define Caucasoid by the dental pattern, then the teeth of Taforalt and the Capsians seem to have been European so early. Theyre genetically outliers from other Caucasoids though.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

I found this site with very interesting small esseys on Slavs, this one is mostly about "Polish Slavs" and Slavs that lived in area of todays Poland.

http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.va...el/slavs2.html

This map is very interesting as well:

According to this, I'm a Serb.

[msciwoj]

Greetings!
any one who is interest on Sarmatian history (including Polish noblemans theory of they sarmatian orings)should read book "Sarmaci" by T.Sulimirski.
Msciwoj