The present state of the Irish language in Ireland

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

As regards the Irish language and its state in modern Ireland, I get very controversial informations. Some sources say it is practically a dead language, on the brink of extinction, its official status as the national language of Ireland being only fictitious.

Others say it has been going through a kind of renaissance, with many Irish trying to speak it at home (even those whose it is not the mother tongue), with newspapers and literary works written in it, songs...

What is the actual state of the Irish language, can someone tell me?
I think it would be pity for a such a language with rich and ancient history (since 5th century) of literacy to disappear...

[Cymro]

Well its not as strong as it should be. The Gaeltacht has probably managed to do what the Brits failed to do - and that was ailineate a large part of the island for their own language. People in vast areas of the Country don't regard the language of Ireland as a language for them.

More success with the Irish language is actually being found in Northern Ireland because of the political strengths of doing so for many.

Its also become to associated with the formality of the state and not with peoples day to day lives.

[Milesian]

Multiculturalism will probably be the final nail in the coffin.
When sign posts are being put up in Polish, national newspapers printing Polish editions (but no Gaeilge versions) & political parties printing leaflets in Mandarin Chinese rather than Irish then things look even less hopeful.

[Cymro]

Where are the Polish and Mandarin Sign posts?

Any signs without Irish on them I think are breaking the Irish Language Laws so report them and fight for your language as opposed to yet again moaning about muliticulralism - it is the Irish that are turning your backs on the language that will lead to its death not some immigrants from Lithuania!

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

Well its not as strong as it should be. The Gaeltacht has probably managed to do what the Brits failed to do - and that was ailineate a large part of the island for their own language.

I think the way it's taught in school does that, not the Gaeltachtai.

People in vast areas of the Country don't regard the language of Ireland as a language for them.

The prevalence of British and American "culture" (Hollywood, BBC, etc) ensures that most young people see little place for the Irish language.

More success with the Irish language is actually being found in Northern Ireland because of the political strengths of doing so for many.

Yes, in a similar way that Catholicism flourished in Ireland under British persecution, or in Poland under Communist persecution.
It becomes a symbol of identity & defiance in the face of a hostile aggressor

Its also become to associated with the formality of the state and not with peoples day to day lives.

Yes, that's something which needs to be addressed.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Milesian

Multiculturalism will probably be the final nail in the coffin.
When sign posts are being put up in Polish, national newspapers printing Polish editions (but no Gaeilge versions) & political parties printing leaflets in Mandarin Chinese rather than Irish then things look even less hopeful.

Is that happening already?
Do English speaking born Irish people (ie. those who learned Irish only at school) show any interest in using Irish they learned at school in everyday life?
And one personal question: Milesian, do you use Gaeilge in everyday communication with, say, members of your family?

Just curious...

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

Where are the Polish and Mandarin Sign posts?

Council plans to introduce Polish road signs - Irish Nationalism

I didn't mention Mandarin sign posts

Any signs without Irish on them I think are breaking the Irish Language Laws so report them and fight for your language as opposed to yet again moaning about muliticulralism - it is the Irish that are turning your backs on the language that will lead to its death not some immigrants from Lithuania!

The Irish language is struggling to survive against one language - English.
How on earth would introducing more languages and cultures benefit it?
How do you proposing further marginalisation would aid Irish language and culture?


When a species is under threat - do you increase hunting of it & destroying more of it's habitat?

[Cymro]

I agree with most of what you say - issues regarding the power of the english language and Holywood etc is a worry for the Germans too apparently with American words falling into young peoples vocabulary.

The Gaeltacht has managed to make the Irish language be seen as a language for those areas within the boundaries of the place and it is therefore less important for those areas outside - it is why I am initially against a simmilar plan for Wales - y 'Fro Gymraeg'. I think the whole of Ireland should be in the Gaeltacht.

While the Irish are turning their backs on the language there is little hope for her. It needs to see a wholesale change in attitude from the Irish people for it to succeed.

And as for your second post.

The Irish people are turing their backs on the language - they don't see it as a language for them. The Irish have achieved independenece for most of the Island then shaftedn their own language. You need to fight for your language by making the rest of the population to see the Irish language as an important defining factor of Ireland and being Irish.

It isn't because of muliticuturalism people are doing this but because people in essence are lazy about these sort of things. The language needs to be alive. Stop moaning about your idea of Multiculturalism and get your fellow Irishman to take their fingers out and not only learn the language but use it.

As an Irishman I assume you'd have had Irish taught to you in school. Do you use it in your day to day life?

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

I agree with most of what you say - issues regarding the power of the english language and Holywood etc is a worry for the Germans too apparently with American words falling into young peoples vocabulary.

And the French, etc.
It's a problem everywhere but due to Globalisation & the need for different peoples to communicate with each other, then I doubt it will get any better.

The Gaeltacht has managed to make the Irish language be seen as a language for those areas within the boundaries of the place and it is therefore less important for those areas outside - it is why I am initially against a simmilar plan for Wales - y 'Fro Gymraeg'. I think the whole of Ireland should be in the Gaeltacht.

Ideally, that would be the case.
It's simply not feasible in practical life, unfortunately.

While the Irish are turning their backs on the language there is little hope for her. It needs to see a wholesale change in attitude from the Irish people for it to succeed.

Irish is becoming less important. One "Irish" (typically Canadian born) Neo-Con
observer wrote that it would be better for the Irish to learn Polish or some other language. Deplorable as that idea is, he has a point.
there are now more Polish speakers than Irish ones. So why bother learning Irish if it's not going to get you on in life. That's how the young tend to view things.

And as for your second post.

The Irish people are turing their backs on the language - they don't see it as a language for them. The Irish have achieved independenece for most of the Island then shaftedn their own language. You need to fight for your language by making the rest of the population to see the Irish language as an important defining factor of Ireland and being Irish.

Many Irish don't care that their island is undergoing a new plantation of a global variety. Until they do, there is little chance of them caring about what language they speak to each other in.

It isn't because of muliticuturalism people are doing this but because people in essence are lazy about these sort of things.

These two are part of the same problem.
Most people don't care about mass immigration as long as it doesn't infringe on their own private little world & they can afford to be "liberal" while it's still happening somewhere distant to them. It's only when they lose their job to cheap foreign labour or their streets are taken over by migrant labourers that they start to get uneasy. Otherwise, they are happy to muddle along with their head in the sand. Same with the language - as long as they have their Playstations, MTV and Chinese takeaways, they really don't care.

As an Irishman I assume you'd have had Irish taught to you in school. Do you use it in your day to day life?

No & no.

[Cymro]

So you are Irish yet do not learn the language? Don't you think you should look at changing that before moaning about Multicuturalism? After all, you are going on about other cultures not respecting the culture of others in this thread and the one on Wales, yet you are yourself contributing towards the demise of your language.

It's bollocks these people sayign we should learn Polish, etc and not Gaelic. I speak Welsh fluently and use it in my day to day life with my friends, family, work collegues etc. I also promote it where I can and use it when shopping, going to the pubs etc. I make however small steps to see it being used as a normall part of living in Wales. My wife who as I said is Scottish is learning Welsh and we try and speak as much Welsh as possible to each other. I also speak English, a little bit of French and a tiny bit of Gaelic. We are capable as humans to learn several languages. Children even more so - they can easily pick languages up. If people wish to speak Polish etc let them, I have no problem with that, but let them also learn Welsh, Irish etc.

It is as simple as that if people want to do it. The Irish government could do a lot to change the attitude towards the language. It is far better to do this than blame the faillings of the Irish towards their language on the Immigrants. The language has long beein in demise before Multiculturalism became the scape goat for all societies failngs.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

So you are Irish yet do not learn the language?

The means were never made available to me.

Don't you think you should look at changing that

I spent considerable money on a hme course to teach myself, yes.

before moaning about Multicuturalism?

Why? Are you suggesting that the two are mutually exclusive?

After all, you are going on about other cultures not respecting the culture of others in this thread and the one on Wales, yet you are yourself contributing towards the demise of your language.

I didn't say anything about other cultures not respecting the Welsh one.
This is not all about culture, but also ethnicity.

It's bollocks these people sayign we should learn Polish, etc and not Gaelic.

If you said so, you would likely be branded a racist.

I speak Welsh fluently and use it in my day to day life with my friends, family, work collegues etc. I also promote it where I can and use it when shopping, going to the pubs etc. I make however small steps to see it being used as a normall part of living in Wales.

Commendable

My wife who as I said is Scottish is learning Welsh and we try and speak as much Welsh as possible to each other.

She should be speaking Gaelic, dammit

I also speak English, a little bit of French and a tiny bit of Gaelic. We are capable as humans to learn several languages. Children even more so - they can easily pick languages up. If people wish to speak Polish etc let them, I have no problem with that, but let them also learn Welsh, Irish etc.

I'm concerned that Polish is a dying language in Poland, more than anything.......

It is as simple as that if people want to do it. The Irish government could do a lot to change the attitude towards the language. It is far better to do this than blame the faillings of the Irish towards their language on the Immigrants.

I don't blame the immigrants so much as the concept and reality of multiculturalism. You do understand that it is a misnomer & will logically lead to the destruction of all the rich & varied cultures in existence in favour of a global monculture?

The language has long beein in demise before Multiculturalism became the scape goat for all societies failngs.

It is simply another burden that really we could do without.
At least with British cultural destruction, it was an enemy with a face that could be opposed. Multiculturalism robs us of any resistance by creating an irrational fear of being shrilly branded as "racists".

[Cymro]

The means were never made available to me

.

Irish lessons are available now

I spent considerable money on a hme course to teach myself, yes.

Why not go to classes- chance to meet other like minded people, and converse etc.
[quote]

Quote:
It's bollocks these people sayign we should learn Polish, etc and not Gaelic.
If you said so, you would likely be branded a racist.

Nope. I never said dont learn Polsih etc, I just don't buy into this "learn Polish as opposed to Irish...." argument. If people wish to learn Polish etc then fine do so, I won't stop you. But, also if you are living in Ireland it is important to learn Irish, Welsh if living in Wales etc.

Quote:
I speak Welsh fluently and use it in my day to day life with my friends, family, work collegues etc. I also promote it where I can and use it when shopping, going to the pubs etc. I make however small steps to see it being used as a normall part of living in Wales.
Commendable

I would say more Important, if I as a Welshman don't use it, how can I expect people who move in here to see a need to do so?

She should be speaking Gaelic, dammit

Yes if she was still in Scotland, but she's in Wales, and learning the language of Wales when living here is a sign of repect. When we go up to Scotland to live I'll be making more of an attempt to learn Gaelic.

I'm concerned that Polish is a dying language in Poland, more than anything.......

Don't need to worry, they have plenty of Poles still in their own country, and most those who've left will be returning.

I don't blame the immigrants so much as the concept and reality of multiculturalism. You do understand that it is a misnomer & will logically lead to the destruction of all the rich & varied cultures in existence in favour of a global monculture?

No it has nothing to do with Multicultralism. People with ither cultural backgrounds can live together and it doesn't need to mean a breakdown in their own culture. At the moment the Poles etc living in Ireland and other places learn English but for all sorts of reasons don't register the existance of Irish. THis is what can chage if your country took its finger out. however, if the Irish aren't willing to do this to their own language then the immigrants won't feel a need to do so.

It is simply another burden that really we could do without.
At least with British cultural destruction, it was an enemy with a face that could be opposed. Multiculturalism robs us of any resistance by creating an irrational fear of being shrilly branded as "racists".

No it doesn't it's just paranoia on ytour behalf. Many immigrants go to places like Dublin, Cork etc and learn English because that is what they see and hear around them. If the Irish changed attitide towards your own language then you'd see a marked change. You could end up with MORE Irish speakers. And this can only be a good thing.

[Milesian]

Originally Posted by Cymro

.

Irish lessons are available now



Why not go to classes- chance to meet other like minded people, and converse etc.

There are no classes that are near enough me to be practical

Nope. I never said dont learn Polsih etc, I just don't buy into this "learn Polish as opposed to Irish...." argument. If people wish to learn Polish etc then fine do so, I won't stop you. But, also if you are living in Ireland it is important to learn Irish, Welsh if living in Wales etc.

Why?

I would say more Important, if I as a Welshman don't use it, how can I expect people who move in here to see a need to do so?

Yes, I agree. But you must understand that we can't put the cart before the horse. The people don't tend to use it, so we must offer an incentive. Increasing the proportion of people who don't speak Irish is an incentive not to learn it as it is rendered ever more obsolete and pointless.

Yes if she was still in Scotland, but she's in Wales, and learning the language of Wales when living here is a sign of repect. When we go up to Scotland to live I'll be making more of an attempt to learn Gaelic.

Keep your hands off our Gaels, Briton

Don't need to worry, they have plenty of Poles still in their own country,

Are you sure? Most of them seem to be here.....

and most those who've left will be returning.

I haven't met any who have any desire to return. All have expressed a desire to stay here.

No it has nothing to do with Multicultralism. People with ither cultural backgrounds can live together and it doesn't need to mean a breakdown in their own culture.

Considering there is no historical prededent for any such thing, what do you base this claim (belief) on?

At the moment the Poles etc living in Ireland and other places learn English but for all sorts of reasons don't register the existance of Irish.

The problem is not solely linguistic by any stretch of the imagination. What of all the Irish people who have lost jobs to Polish immigrants or immigrants from anywhere else? Do you think they or their families care if the Poles walk around greeting each other with a "Dia duit" spoken in a fine Irish lilt?

THis is what can chage if your country took its finger out. however, if the Irish aren't willing to do this to their own language then the immigrants won't feel a need to do so.

What tongue the immigrants communicate with each other in is largely besides the point

No it doesn't it's just paranoia on ytour behalf. Many immigrants go to places like Dublin, Cork etc and learn English because that is what they see and hear around them. If the Irish changed attitide towards your own language then you'd see a marked change. You could end up with MORE Irish speakers. And this can only be a good thing.

Wrong - in your vision we;d end up with more non-Irish Irish speakers.
That's scant consolation, to say the least.