Primal Germanic Territory

[Zyklop]

Map showing the ancient Germanic settlement areas from 750 before Christ until about the year of Christ´s birth.


Image out of dtv-atlas Weltgeschichte

[Zyklop]

Another map. This time Brockhaus Verlag (2001)

Germanic settlements in the first century a.d.

[Polak]

Here are some shocking facts for you:

GERMANIC tribes briefly inhabited lands that were to become Poland. These tribes have no connection to the modern German state.

Most of these people moved on, and were replaced by Poles. Those who stayed behind mixed with Poles.

The KINGDOM OF POLAND was the first state to legaly claim these lands. The current Republic of Poland is the legal successor to that state.

The Germanization of Polish lands began after the Teutonic Knights were INVITED by Poland to help convert the pagan Baltic Prussians. The Knights overstayed their welcome, thus, Germanic Prussia is an illegal concept to begin with.

In other words, the current German state has NO rights to lands east of the Oder, and no German state ever did.

[Awar]

Well, these maps are of Germanic tribes only... if it depicted ALL the peoples who inhabited those lands, it would be clear there was many ethnicities.

A barbarian tribe is not statehood like today, it isn't impossible that several tribes of totally different origin exist on the same teritory.

[Antiquarian]

Originally Posted by Polak

GERMANIC tribes briefly inhabited lands that were to become Poland. These tribes have no connection to the modern German state.

In the north the ethnic distinctions werent rigid, so nations crossed from being Germanic to being Slavic, and its difficult to use archeology to draw a line which seperates these cultures from each other. Language groups arent ethnic groups and the same problems exist with the borders between Germanic and other forest cultures and steppe cultures.

[Awar]

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

In the north the ethnic distinctions werent rigid, so nations crossed from being Germanic to being Slavic, and its difficult to use archeology to draw a line which seperates these cultures from each other. Language groups arent ethnic groups and the same problems exist with the borders between Germanic and other forest cultures and steppe cultures.

So, it's quite possible that the shift happened even before that.
For example, previous to the events depicted in these maps, the population could've been Slavic, and then Germanized, then Slavicized and Germanized by Teutonic knights, and in the end, a Slavicization process could've began again with Eastern Germany becoming a sattelite of the USSR.

[Polak]

Indeed, the only STATE with legal rights to these lands east of the Oder is Poland.

Germany has no leg to stand on.

[Polak]

I find it amazing how so many Germans claim Polish lands just because some Scandinavian tribes moved through there in ancient times, on their way to oblivion.

Why don't they claim Sweden as part of Germany? After all, those Germanic tribes are still there.

[Zyklop]

You Pan-Slavs are funny

A quote by the famous German historian Adam von Bremen describing the land between Elbe and Oder in 1075:

Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, viribus, frugibus et armis opulentissima a Vinulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Vandali. ~ Adam von Bremen, 1075 (Adam II, 21)

Sclavania then, the richest province of Germania, rich in men, crops and weapons, which is controlled by the Vinuli, formerly called the Vandals. ~ Adam von Bremen, 1075 (Adam II, 21)

The reason for the migration of the Germanic tribes was overpopulation, in other words: the overspill left the original settling places while the rest stayed. Why should they leave completely? Even a large ammount of Ostrogoths stayed at the settlements near the Black Sea coast despite the general emigration to Byzanz and Italy and the Hunnish subjugation. The Crimerian Goths where still existant in the 16th century. And if the soil became unfertile, why should Slavs settle in these regions in the first place?

Originally Posted by Awar

A barbarian tribe is not statehood like today, it isn't impossible that several tribes of totally different origin exist on the same teritory.

Tell this the Poles
Anyway, at least for the period which is depicted on these maps, Tacitus mentions no other non-Germanic tribes.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

You Pan-Slavs are funny

A quote by the famous German historian Adam von Bremen describing the land between Elbe and Oder in 1075:

Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, viribus, frugibus et armis opulentissima a Vinulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Vandali. ~ Adam von Bremen, 1075 (Adam II, 21)

Sclavania then, the richest province of Germania, rich in men, crops and weapons, which is controlled by the Vinuli, formerly called the Vandals. ~ Adam von Bremen, 1075 (Adam II, 21)

The reason for the migration of the Germanic tribes was overpopulation, in other words: the overspill left the original settling places while the rest stayed. Why should they leave completely? Even a large ammount of Ostrogoths stayed at the settlements near the Black Sea coast despite the general emigration to Byzanz and Italy and the Hunnish subjugation. The Crimerian Goths where still existant in the 16th century. And if the soil became unfertile, why should Slavs settle in these regions in the first place?


Tell this the Poles
Anyway, at least for the period which is depicted on these maps, Tacitus mentions no other non-Germanic tribes.

Not relevant.

These tribes don't have a connection to Germany. Just as Swedes don't have a connection t o Germany today.

Land doesn't belong to Germany just because some Germanic peasants lived there.

That's like Poland claiming Manchuria 1000 years form now.

Get a clue.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Polak

Land doesn't belong to Germany just because some Germanic peasants lived there.

I have taken notice of the Polish point of view. Thanks

[Polak]

Good, so you won't be claiming Sweden as a northern province of Germany then? That's a relief.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Polak

I pity Germany.

I, however, pity emigrants who traded their homecountry for a filled purse.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

I, however, pity emigrants who traded their homecountry for a filled purse.

Who ever said my purse was filled? But I'm working on that.

[Zyklop]

btw, can some Mod please remove the offtopic posts? This thread is about Germanic settlements, not about who owns or should own these territories nowadays.
Thanks.

[Zyklop]

Settlements of the Scirians:


Source: Vom Ursprung der Deutschen ~ H.J. Marquardt (1995)


The most famous Scirian was the mercenary Odoacer who deposed the last Roman emperor Romulus Augustus in 476 a.d.

[Zyklop]

Settlements of the Vandals in the 4th century a.d.


Source: Vom Ursprung der Deutschen ~ H.J. Marquardt (1995)

[Zyklop]

Settlements of the Burgundians in the first century a.d.


Source: Vom Ursprung der Deutschen ~ H.J. Marquardt (1995)

[Zyklop]

Map of Greater Germania according to the ancient Greek geographer Ptolemy (87-150 AD)

[Zyklop]

More informations about Ptolemy´s works:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lemy/2/10.html