Primal Germanic Territory

[Zyklop]

Tacitus Germania

curious west Germany borders hasn't changed much from 2000 years ago untill now

[Zyklop]

More source material:

JORDANES - THE ORIGIN AND DEEDS OF THE GOTHS

Paulus Diaconus - Historia Langobardorum

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History

[Gil]

Ok, first of all a map:



The germanic kingdoms circa 526 a.C.

As you can notice, the Iberian Peninsula was divided between Suevs and Visigoths (the Western Goths). Therefore would you perhaps think that the modern day germans or Germany as a state have any right to claim this land as their own? I'm not starting a flame war mate, i'm just stating that though one tribe has inhabited a region for alot of time that does not give them the right of ruling that region.

Cheers

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Manji

The germanic kingdoms circa 526 a.C.

As you can notice, the Iberian Peninsula was divided between Suevs and Visigoths (the Western Goths). Therefore would you perhaps think that the modern day germans or Germany as a state have any right to claim this land as their own? I'm not starting a flame war mate, i'm just stating that though one tribe has inhabited a region for alot of time that does not give them the right of ruling that region.

That´s exactly my point of view! As you might have seen in the "Are North-Italians Germanic"-thread I share your opinion on this.
Neither do the Langobardian settlements 1500 years ago make North-Italy Germanic nor do the Slavic settlements in East-Germany 1000 years ago make these territories Slavic.

But if someone thinks otherwise, I simply can bring up the Germanic settlements 3000-1500 years ago.

[Prussian]

[Treuer Schwabe]

The lost German lands to the east, will always remain German in our history and our collective memories.As much as the Poles may wish it, they cannot rewrite history to suit the classroom teachings prevalent in post war Poland.

[Dr. Solar Wolff]

Originally Posted by Treuer Schwabe

The lost German lands to the east, will always remain German in our history and our collective memories.As much as the Poles may wish it, they cannot rewrite history to suit the classroom teachings prevalent in post war Poland.

East? The Ostrogoths had most of the north European plain all the way to Asia at one time. They overlayed the Gauls of Classical times. Atilla put an end to most of that but the pin-pong result was the Visigoths in Iberia and the Anglo-Saxons in England. "East" to most modern Germans might be Silesia or maybe the Baltic countries but it all depends upon the year or period of time in question.

[Treuer Schwabe]

Lost German lands to the East being Silesia, East Prussia,West Prussia, Pomerania and Danzig.Terrirories that had predominant German populations, that saw themselves as Germans and wished to remain that way.I find it perplexing how anyone can possibly claim that East Prussia for example could ever have been anything but German prior to the expulsions by the Poles.My mothers maiden name is Malewski, yet she and her family are German and have a German ancestry that traces back 500 years.There may well have been a Pole somewhere in the family history, in fact maybe a few,but that hardly makes my mother's family Polish.East Prussia was as German as Bavaria or Swabia, the culture, language and social fabric were all German.The Oder is no more Germanys natural border than the Rhine is.
While it is unlikely that Germany will ever incorporate these territories gain, the historical facts cannot be conveniently altered to suit modern Polish concepts of history.

[White Falcon]

[Agrippa]

I didnt read the thread before, but I must say the reaction of some people is really interesting, I mean Zyklop just posted some pictures of the early Germanic settlements as we know it until now and (almost every reasonable) scientist will agree on that and the first reaction is rather offtopic, even a little bit aggressive someone could say.

But whats really interesting is, that on this map, I own the dtv-Atlas too btw, many areas are not colored, areas of which I wouldnt say that they werent inhabited. That are areas from which it is just not known for sure which tribes settled there, though its reasonable to argue they were mostly Germanic and Germanised either.
For the Slavic question, the archaeological material is quite clear and even if some Ultra-Germanophils say that all this people were Germanic anyway and Slavs are a construct and some Ultra-Slavophils say that masses of Slavs lived there before, thats all rather improbable.
The material culture in the later times was so different that this is quite unlikely though its likely that during the East-expansion of Germanics in the early times Slavs were Germanised and it happened the other way around during the Slav expansion.

[RuneDK]

First of all, please repost those maps... A red X doesn't teach me anything about old German territory...

Originally Posted by White Falcon

Now you got all the Danes pissed off as well... That map shows North Nordslesvig/Nordschleswig as a part of Germany... The loss of Slesvig-Holsten/Schleswig-Holstein to Germany is probably why many Danes still dislike Germans.(I don't, but the majority do.) It's a small piece of land for Germany, but a large piece for Denmark. I guess it's a bit the same as the Poland-Germany relations...

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by RuneDK

First of all, please repost those maps... A red X doesn't teach me anything about old German territory...

Repost because of attachment loss:

Map of Germanic settlements from about 750-0 BC:


Another one from Brockhaus (2001)


Map of Germanic settlements according to the Greek historian Ptolemy

Settlement of the Scirians

Source: Vom Ursprung der Deutschen - H.J. Marquardt 1995

Settlement of the Burgundians in the 1st century AD


Settlement of the Vandals in the 4th century AD


Source material for these maps:

Tacitus - Germania

Ptolemy´s geographical works

JORDANES - THE ORIGIN AND DEEDS OF THE GOTHS

Paulus Diaconus - Historia Langobardorum

Pliny the Elder, The Natural History

[RuneDK]

The socalled Nordgermanen would be different tribes... not just one tribe. In Jutland there has always been Jutes(or Jyder in Danish)... Sealand and the other Danish islands would be inhabitated by Danes.

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Settlement of the Burgundians in the 1st century AD

I wonder is there any discussion in English on the web, concerning the effect East Germanic languages had on the placenames of modern Poland? At a pinch I could manage a Russian account, or even struggle with a Russian one! Is it still possible to discern their presence, through the later Slavonic and German layers?

[TiCon]

Originally Posted by Treuer Schwabe

Lost German lands to the East being Silesia, East Prussia,West Prussia, Pomerania and Danzig.Terrirories that had predominant German populations, that saw themselves as Germans and wished to remain that way.I find it perplexing how anyone can possibly claim that East Prussia for example could ever have been anything but German prior to the expulsions by the Poles.My mothers maiden name is Malewski, yet she and her family are German and have a German ancestry that traces back 500 years.There may well have been a Pole somewhere in the family history, in fact maybe a few,but that hardly makes my mother's family Polish.East Prussia was as German as Bavaria or Swabia, the culture, language and social fabric were all German.The Oder is no more Germanys natural border than the Rhine is.
While it is unlikely that Germany will ever incorporate these territories gain, the historical facts cannot be conveniently altered to suit modern Polish concepts of history.

You are taking the words right out of my mouth

[Sergius]

SK, what is the point of that map?

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

SK, what is the point of that map?

It shows Pomerania as German; which it was. the Poles were made to displace the native Germans by decree of Stalin at the end of WW2. The Poles themselves were forced to give land to the Ukrainians and Belorussians. Everyone moved west by order of the Soviets.

[TiCon]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

SK, what is the point of that map?

Polak claims Germany have no claims what so ever. I added this map to prove that the eastern territories had a german population until 1945, that Breslau and Stettin were German cities. None of the eldery today in Stettin of Polish origin was born there.Germany today have every right to claim it. Everything is German: the cities, roads, churches, monasteries, castles, rivers, names, architecture.....