How do you see your Nation, ideally ?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Ed Gein

[skadi mode] You are anti-Germanic!!! Ban!!! [/skadi mode off]

LOL! Not a joke. One moderator there, Leofreak, said after a remark that my comments were "against Germanic preservation".

I still haven't recovered from the shock.

[Leland Gaunt]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

LOL! Not a joke. One moderator there, Leofreak, said after a remark that my comments were "against Germanic preservation".

I still haven't recovered from the shock.

I think word "preservation" sometimes is being badly overused.

When in doubt, blame it on " anti blah-blah-blah preservation."

[Gavril]

Originally Posted by Saxonian Knight

No hard feelings, Mynydd, but I think it is for a Spaniard as yourself -=if Iam correct(?)- difficult to understand the situation of the Germanics, especially those on the frontier with France and the Slavic world. To think that Germans can be buddies with Poles, Czechs, Russians, or for that matter with Serbs or Turks is ridicilous. Europe as an continent is a devided areas. White nationalism is unrealistic. The riots in Estonia has proven that very clearly.

So because White Nationalism is unrealistic, the Germanics have to unite against everyone else?
edit: By the way, what is the situation of the Germanics on the frontier with the Slavic world? Standing with one foot in each of those two, I fail to see a problem.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Saxonian Knight

No hard feelings, Mynydd, but I think it is for a Spaniard as yourself -=if Iam correct(?)-

Yes, that's 100% right.

difficult to understand the situation of the Germanics, especially those on the frontier with France and the Slavic world. To think that Germans can be buddies with Poles, Czechs, Russians, or for that matter with Serbs or Turks is ridicilous.

If I were you, I would measure my words one by one and with much care before putting them in writing the next time. I'll explain why..

What you are saying there is that the Germanics are a people unfit (I suppose that by nature, or is it by deformation of character?) to live next to other nations.

I hope that you realize of how grevious your words are. Not for others but for Germanics. If I were a Germanic I would feel deeply offended that I am depicted as an incorregible savage by another Germanic.

But since I am not a Germanic, my reaction should be to keep your words as a warning to show others, so that they are aware of what Germanics are.

However, the truth is that I have met enough Germanics to know that they are mostly normal people yet there are freaks with a savage instinct among them just like it happens, more or less, with other peoples.

I have also met different people from nations of Germanic languages varied enough to know that your map above could only be attained by subjugation of most of the Germanic nations by other Germanic nations.

Europe as an continent is a devided areas. White nationalism is unrealistic.

You should make sure that you know who you are talking to before deciding what he is or what he thinks.

For a start, I would suggest you to read the Statement of Stirpes, which I wrote myself. In particular the part where it says:

"We are alien to concepts like Pan-Europeanism, Aryanism, White Nationalism, or any other such constructs which may imply a loss of our individual national identities in favour of an homogeneous pro-European pseudo-identity or, worse, of an amorphous Internationalism based on pseudo-racial delusions."

http://forum.stirpes.net/rules.php?show=about

Eventhough white nationalism uses the label nationalism, there is nothing of nationalism in it and it should be renamed to "white rac[ial]ism".

I doubt that you will find one single WN among the regular members of Stirpes, included myself. What you will find on Stirpes is people with a true Nationalist idea and with a clear idea of what Europe is.

I should also add that white nationalism is unrealistic as you said, and that the pan-germanicism that your map shows is equally unrealistic. The irony is that you are much closer to white nationalism than anyone here. So close yet so unaware.

The riots in Estonia has proven that very clearly.

The riots in Estonia are the same that you would have in Denmark if instead of Russians there were Bavarians there demanding that the symbols of the occupation by the III Reich were kept.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Ed Gein

I think the question was how do you see your nation ideally, and not how do you see other nations...

That's it in one sentence! Imagine how much better the history of the 20th Century would be if that was the first rule. The neocons in the US should be made to tattoo this on their forehead.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

The riots in Estonia are the same that you would have in Denmark if instead of Russians there were Bavarians there demanding that the symbols of the occupation by the III Reich were kept.

I'll review that again and I will give you another example that I recalled right after I had written my previous post, only to show you how wrong you are.

Basically, you are saying that the nations of Europe can never achieve the ideal of living side by side, respecting and protecting each other in harmony. Something that I would expect to hear of the tribes of Africa.

You are also saying that it would be possible, however, for the nations of Germanic languages, in contrast, be unified under one macro-nation or macro-state apart from Europe.

It should be noticed that the map that you present was drawn by the nazi SS, and that much of it was achieved for a short period of time through the invasion and occupation of formerly free nations. It also contains lands annexed through force and which belong to other peoples who are not Germanic.

Further, to support your "ideals" you put the example of the riots in Estonia.

I have used a supposition to show that the example of Estonia for Europe would be the same if it was a Germanic country (instead of Estonia) and a Germanic Empire (instead of Europe).

But admittedly, my example was figured. Now let me give you another example, of bigger dimensions than that of Estonia and that it happened in the reality.

Norway, a Germanic nation, and the children born of a German father and a Norwegian mother.

They were called Tyskerbarna (which some articles translate as "German bastards" and other as "German children"; maybe someone who speaks Norwegian can say). They were despised by Norwegian people because the fathers were German, they were abused and treated literally like scum in the orphanages where they were dumped, or locked in mental asylums. At some point, the government decided that the reason why those Norwegian women (who people called Tyskerhoren, or German whores) had slept with Germans was that they were mentally retarded and they were sterilized.

This happened in Norway perhaps on a larger scale, but also in Denmark. And, apparently, in The Netherlands too.

Good luck with your Germanic Empire and with its consequences.

On Stirpes we prefer to look forward to a dream of a Europe of free and sovereign nations, shoulder to shoulder with each other, based on mutual respect and friendship. We prefer high ideals.

[svin]

An article about these children. Fatal consequences of brutal realization of "pan-Germanic" ideas (I wonder, can they be even called Pan-Germanic, because military occupation of one Germanic nation by another doesn't look like an alliance to me), because these children were not guilty of what Nazis did in Norway:

Norwegian government sued over children Nazis left behind | Norway | Europe | International News | News | Telegraph


Norwegian government sued over children Nazis left behind

By Tony Paterson and Allan Hall in Berlin
Last Updated: 3:56pm BST 19/06/2001

THE Norwegian government is facing a series of highly embarrassing lawsuits following shocking allegations that it connived after the war in the maltreatment of thousands of children fathered by German troops during the Nazi occupation.

The plight of the estimated 12,000 children born to Norwegian women but fathered by Germans under the Nazis' infamous lebensborn racial purity programme is to be brought before the Norwegian courts later this year after more than 50 years of official lack of interest in the subject.

In the run-up to the court cases, many lebensborn victims have spoken out about the savage treatment meted out to them by the Norwegian government and by ordinary citizens during the postwar years for the crime of being Tyskerbarna or "German bastards". Many were locked away in orphanages or mental asylums for years - where they were subjected to sexual abuse - or had the "Germanness" beaten out of them by their Norwegian foster parents.
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An initial 150 cases researched by the lawyer Randi Hagen Spydevold will form the basis of legal claims by lebensborn children for compensation from the Norwegian government. However, the Oslo-based lawyer says that since she began drawing attention to their plight, hundreds of other cases have been brought to her notice.

Mrs Spydevold told the Telegraph last week: "My clients' lives have been wrecked by a combination of official stigma and individual brutality. All we learned in school was how bravely the Norwegian resistance fought against the Nazis. I first heard about the plight of lebensborn victims a year ago and I was outraged."

Norway capitulated to the Germans on April 10, 1940. The Norwegian government subsequently fled into exile in Britain leaving the Nazi sympathiser and nationalist leader Vidkun Quisling heading a puppet regime.

Most of the victims were products of the Nazi SS leader Heinrich Himmler's lebensborn or "fountain of life" policy, which actively promoted sexual relations between German troops and women classed as true Aryans - such as the Norwegians. The children conceived were taken from their mothers to be raised as "racially pure" citizens for the Third Reich.

Mrs Spydevold said she also had evidence of human rights abuses which went far beyond brutality. They involved four lebensborn children who died allegedly after being used in the 1950s and 1960s by the Norwegian defence ministry and the CIA to test the effects of the hallucinogenic drug, LSD.

Karl-Otto Zinken, 60, was one of the victims. Born to a German soldier and a Norwegian mother, he was placed in a lebensborn home in the Norwegian port city of Bergen after his birth in 1941. After the war the Norwegian authorities placed him in a mental institution where he was beaten and tortured and subsequently sexually abused by two doctors. Mr Zinken said: "We were regarded as the rubbish that the Germans left behind. The Norwegian authorities simply shut their eyes and let it happen."

Another of the lebensborn children was Tove Laila. She was taken at the age of one by the SS to her German grandparents in the east German city of Eberswalde in 1942 after her father was killed in action. Mrs Laila, now aged 59, remembers: "It was the happiest period in my life."

In 1947, under an agreement reached by the Allies and the Norwegian government, Mrs Laila was returned to her Norwegian mother where she was an unwelcome guest. Aged only six and speaking no Norwegian, she was beaten daily by her stepfather whenever she uttered a word of German. He later regularly sexually abused her.

Mrs Spydevold said: "No attempt was made by the Norwegian authorities to check what kind of family Mrs Laila was being sent to. She suffered years of abuse because nobody was interested in her well-being."

An estimated 50,000 Norwegian women are thought to have had affairs with Germans during the occupation. They were branded as Tyskerhoren or "German whores" by much of the population during and after the war.

Branded as collaborators, the women were publicly ostracised and subjected to humiliating punishments, such as having their heads shaved after the defeat of Germany. Tor Brandacher, of the Association of Lebensborn War Children, said: "We needed somebody to hate after 1945 and women were ideal targets." Documents collected by Mr Brandacher suggest that it was Norwegian policy after the war to portray the women and their children as mentally deficient.

To date, the Norwegian government has shown little interest in lebensborn victims. It has argued that their cases are "spent" because the injustices occurred more than 30 years ago. Norway's Social Democrat health minister, Tor Toenne, said: "They had an especially difficult childhood, but the misdeeds against these children were lapses. It is difficult to reconstruct what happened to them after so many years."

The survivors are adamant, however, that the government should address one of the most shameful chapters in Norway's history. Gerd Fleischer, a 58-year-old Oslo charity organiser and the daughter of a German soldier and a Norwegian woman, said: "The terminology used to describe us was as bad as the Nazis in its contempt for mankind. I grew up as a second-class person in hell. As a civilised nation, Norway must finally apologise and bring all the facts to light."

[Nerthus]

I'm all for a Germanic consciousness in the sense of acknowledging their common origins and relations between languages, cultures etc. but one ought to keep in mind that Germanics have evolved with time and there are differences between ethnicities which would be much better preserved through ethnic nationalism than a huge metaethnic state. I think at least currently there's no overall desire coming from Germanic countries to unite into a bigger entity. To obtain such things through war would also be devastating, as some of these countries are experiencing low birthrates and an aging population - take Germany for example. What about the leadership and the language of such a pan-Germanic state? It's not like the case of Germany and Austria for example, which have been unified in the past and are one nation. I think it would be out of the question for one Germanic nation to rule over others, it would mean a barrier against advancement and diversification of Germanics.

[Menydh]

That's sensible. Further to it, there is no reason why a Germanic sense of unity cannot be preserved between the different Germanic peoples as free nations.

Nationalism and Europeanism is about a Europe of Free Nations, as opposed to E.U. Eurocracy or any other suffocating and destructive form of pan-Europeanism.

[Erasmus]

How do you see your Nation, ideally ?

My dream is the reconstruction of the Spanish Catholic Empire; the Holy Empire of Charles V in Europe:



In America:



The Empire of Philip II:



I'd like to be the viceroy of Rio de la Plata

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

How do you see your Nation, ideally ?

My dream is the reconstruction of the Spanish Catholic Empire; the Holy Empire of Charles V in Europe:

You should know what this tells about nationalism.. zero.

Empire and history, there is no concept of nation in those maps.

Rather, the first map represents the draining of resources of the nation of Spain to maintain the dinastic rights of a monarchy.

[Nerthus]

Spaniards, Mexicans and South Americans part of the same "nation"? Isn't that a bit multicultural, multiracial, you name it.
Imperialism is a dead end, history's shown that all empires fall.

[Savage]

Norways history and sagas reflects that the countrys builds on two cultures and nations, the Norwegian and the Saami.

Sapmi has in Norway achieved acceptable degrees of autonomy concerning the exploitation of natural ressources, including oil, gas and minerals. But Sapmi is also partially in Sweden, Suomi and Russia...so.

However the traditional core Sampi population are not more than 50 000, and that is not even many enough to run a modern state administration, so separatism is not optional. Neither would it be reasonable that 50 000 individuals could take over a piece of land the size of Sweden?

It seems like the more than 1000 years old platonic marriage will have to continue.

And the nation, the individuals, the people, are not the State. The State should serve ans protect the nation, or nations of it. It should be a guardian. But instead it has become a prisonguard, a monster. I love my nations, but I hate their State.