Are Imperial Pasts Unquestionably Objectionable?

[wilpuri]

[Edit by Mynydd: selected posts split from old thread and moved to new thread.

Full new title should read: "Are Imperial Pasts Unquestionably Objectionable Or Are There Limits and Exceptions To Criticisms?"

Poll Added.]

So, basically, Russia colonizes a number of other peoples, and then they wonder what all these foreigners are doing within their borders?

[Gottslav]

Russia's Imperialist past is both a burden and a curse of Russian nationalism, indeed.

Btw, just saw myself in the video. Finally, made it to the modern history textbooks!

[Menydh]

I disagree, at least in part. One cannot compare clinging to an overseas imperialism (Britain) with an imperialism based on own borders protection (Russia).

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I disagree, at least in part. One cannot compare clinging to an overseas imperialism (Britain) with an imperialism based on own borders protection (Russia).

Uhm... What possible threat have the different indigenous peoples of Russia presented Russia with? This is as much an empire as the British Empire was. Russia, in its various forms, has acted as one the greatest destroyers of native cultures, including European cultures.

I hope that Russian nationalists would make a break with Russian chauvinism and imperialism, true to nationalist ideals.

[Menydh]

So the Mongolic and Turkic tribes have never been a threat to Russia or to Europe. Whatever..

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So the Mongolic and Turkic tribes have never been a threat to Russia or to Europe. Whatever..

But does this justify Russian imperialism? A slippery slope.

[Menydh]

Here I wouldn't use 'imperialism' in a derogative way. Whatever did not fall under the sphere of Russia was likely to fall under the sphere of China or Turkey.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Here I wouldn't use 'imperialism' in a derogative way. Whatever did not fall under the sphere of Russia was likely to fall under the sphere of China or Turkey.

Imperialism is imperialism, be it Russian, British or Spanish.

[Menydh]

Never mind that empires have had different structures, composition, motivations, raison d'etre, objectives, origins, etc.

Are you ready to tell next that the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Mongol Empire and American imperialism are all the same?

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Never mind that empires have had different structures, composition, motivations, raison d'etre, objectives, origins, etc.

Are you ready to tell next that the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Mongol Empire and American imperialism are all the same?

I would never say they are the same. But I would object to all of them.

[Gottslav]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

One cannot compare clinging to an overseas imperialism (Britain) with an imperialism based on own borders protection (Russia).

You're right, of course. From the moral standpoint alone, they're two different kinds of Imperialism.

But what matters today is the consequences in regards to respective colonizing populations, which are samey.

[Aptrgangr]

Germany's imperial past only brought pain and losses to my people (and to those attacked), simple as that.
German imperialism did not only occur outside of her border, but also inside. Prussia more than one time occupied other German lands - afte the Deutsches Reich was (re-) founded in 1871 this no longer was possible - so colonies in Africa were established.
And, of course the German expansionism causing WW 2 made any sort of nationalism outlawed wordldwide.

[wilpuri]

I also object to the notion that Russia was simply protecting/defending herself with her imperialist exansionism. Some may have been that, but she was an empire, like Britain. And anyways, Russia still 'occupies' non-Russian land, and it was this my first post was referring to.

I do not judge a nation by its history alone, for me most important is the present and the future.

EDIT:

My choice on the poll is this:

No. Empires are inherent to Civilisation and Human Evolution. They cannot be put to question on the grounds of a simplicist and politically correct and biased objectionism

with the following changes:

Yes. Empires are inherent to Civilisation and Human Evolution. They cannot be put to question on the grounds of a simplicist and politically correct and biased objectionism.

While I see empires as the natural results of a non-egalitarian (in the extreme) societies, where the rich and powerful rule the nation towards more riches and powers, I don't see it as morally correct. I accept that it has happened and will happen, just as murders happen and will happen in the future, but I nonetheless object to it.

[Menydh]

It is clear that the imperial past of Russia is a burden to Russians today. But, what can be done about it? Russia's loss of influence in those regions would be Islam's or China's gains. Like it would have been in the past if Russia had not occupied them.

So, is it fair to compare it to murders? I don't think so. It is easy for others to criticise if they don't have the responsibility for it.

In Germany it is a different case, for sure. Their recent history tells that everytime that they have tried to expand in an imperialistic way, it has resulted in further shrinking of their territories.

The differences between one case and the other are big..

The British case is yet different. An overseas empire but one which has absorbed the metropolis. Alright, only if we are realistic.

At least in Russians you see many who their identity is ethnic, not that of the empire. With the British, however, even the so-called nationalists identify with the empire.

A case where this is little visible is Spain. But I've seen a few people excusing South American immigration on the grounds of culture.. and even heard of some Falangist doing that!

Finally, France has also been hit by its colonial past, especially for Algeria. While most pied noir, who were considered French Patriots, were European some I've seen show noticeable North African admixture.

[wilpuri]

well, had it been Chinese or Turkic or whatever imperialism, I would find it just as inexcusable. What Russians can do today? Plenty. Stop the oppression and suppression of native cultures in the republics, drop the chauvinism. Live and let live.

[Strengthandhonour]

I think Italian Imperialism was a bit of a joke. Sure we had stablished colonies in Somalia for example(interesting fact:under Italian rule Somalia produced 2 yearly crops versus today that people are starving). I am thinking that a lot of Italians never took Italy's imperialistic moves seriously. I remember my grandfather sharing stories with me of how much they emphasized on Roman and Greek studies while he was a young boy in school, then kids being puzzled why they decided to invade their great Med. neighbors that were suppousely highly civilized and influential to us.
My grandfather's brother was a colonial soldier in the northern African colonies(ended up fighting in Rommel's army) and he said that a lot of the Italian soldiers never really believed in super