Europe, cooperation and the EU

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

What I meant with that is what it represents (cooperation, common policies, etc.) things that would very much make a country politically European. I mentioned it only because Georgia is very positive to the EU to give an example of the exact opposite, not because it's some kind of requirement for a country to be considered politically European.

On that subject, the EU is not perfect but it's definitely the best framework currently available for more cooperation within Europe. There are parts I like and dislike but I think it's a good base to build and improve on.

Here I disagree with you vehemently. EU is not about cooperation but about making a superstate, with all countries losing their sovereignity entirely and a self-appointed caste of euro(c)rats forging destiny for all European nations. Restrictions of agricultural production are aimed at maintaining the ruling system of speculation and at preventing all countries from any kind of self-sufficiency (autarky).

EU is a truely criminal organization, run by criminals and swindlers.

[EUNationalist]

Originally Posted by Marulus

Here I disagree with you vehemently. EU is not about cooperation but about making a superstate, with all countries losing their sovereignity entirely and a self-appointed caste of euro(c)rats forging destiny for all European nations. Restrictions of agricultural production are aimed at maintaining the ruling system of speculation and at preventing all countries from any kind of self-sufficiency (autarky).

EU is a truely criminal organization, run by criminals and swindlers.

Ok, now we're going off topic here.

"EU is not about cooperation" sorry, that's funny.

Superstates are teh evil? Look at the world you live in. Can't you see the blocs forming and the already large nations becoming more involved in world politics? The US is no longer the country to have the last word as it was in the post-Cold War days. If Europe does not unite, it will simply be a group of small countries without much to say about anything. Only together will European countries have a say in world politics. Large nations will dominate in the future. In my opinion, Europe deserves this power. We have better values than the others (US for example) and these values are needed at the top level.

I do agree with you about a few things though. I do not want to see a large superstate where we are simply Europeans and the old borders erased from the map but the EU is a union.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

Ok, now we're going off topic here.

"EU is not about cooperation" sorry, that's funny.

Superstates are teh evil? Look at the world you live in. Can't you see the blocs forming and the already large nations becoming more involved in world politics? The US is no longer the country to have the last word as it was in the post-Cold War days. If Europe does not unite, it will simply be a group of small countries without much to say about anything. Only together will European countries have a say in world politics. Large nations will dominate in the future. In my opinion, Europe deserves this power. We have better values than the others (US for example) and these values are needed at the top level.

I do agree with you about a few things though. I do not want to see a large superstate where we are simply Europeans and the old borders erased from the map but the EU is a union.

The EU has the same "values" as the US.

[EUNationalist]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

The EU has the same "values" as the US.

Would the EU go to war (if it could) for increased influence or economical interest? I think not.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

"EU is not about cooperation" sorry, that's funny.

It is you who are being funny here. Cooperation is something entirely different from superstate and the current EU is about the latter and not the former. Ever heard of the (botched) project of European Constitution? Ever heard of Lisbon Treaty (let's hope the Irish will bury it to burn in hell for the entire eternity and even beyond)? What is that if not a superstate? Cooperation between European states and nations was the agenda of then European (Economic) Community of several decades ago, now it is distant past. Where do you live, for God's sake? Since Maastricht Treaty (1992) European Union has been on a path to superstate.

Cooperation is a good thing, but cooperation between sovereign and independent nation states and not a despotic rule of a cabal of self-appointed beaurocrats.

Maybe the cooperation inside the old EEC had some good sides, in lessening the tensions which grew as result of the Second World War, but now those times are gone, it's the past. The present is the project of superstate. Or maybe that is what you like?

You yourself make a hint that superstates are not that bad:

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

Superstates are the evil?

And then you contradict yourself:

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

I do not want to see a large superstate where we are simply Europeans and the old borders erased from the map but the EU is a union.

[wilpuri]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

Would the EU go to war (if it could) for increased influence or economical interest? I think not.

That's not called values, its called lacking a military and having a different approach for the same goals.

[orieleye]

EUNationalist, the EU isn't a nation.

[EUNationalist]

Originally Posted by Gnist

How can you even be serious about this? Please stop it, or someone should create a new thread out of your posts, with some funny title like: "Can one resist supranational power and still be European?" The question is about Georgians as a nation, not about what the polticians of Georgia say or don't say. It is not even about what the Georgians say about the EU, mind you. The EU and its criteria of inclusion and exclusion are irrelevant, as is the Georgian public opinion on the EU, as it may well be corrupt. Stay on topic, please.

Originally Posted by Marulus

To say that Georgia is European due to its cooperation and positive attitude towards EU is as invalid an argument as the one displayed by Crvena Zvezda who said that Georgia is NOT European because of its good political relations with Turkey and the pro-NATO attitude of its politicians.

Did you read my other post? Because that's not what I said (quoted below). It has nothing to do with the organisation EU. You simply jumped on that because you didn't have any better arguments?

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

What I meant with that is what it represents (cooperation, common policies, etc.) things that would very much make a country politically European. I mentioned it only because Georgia is very positive to the EU to give an example of the exact opposite, not because it's some kind of requirement for a country to be considered politically European.

[Weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by EUNationalist

Did you read my other post? Because that's not what I said (quoted below). It has nothing to do with the organisation EU. You simply jumped on that because you didn't have any better arguments?

Whatever you are saying, say it in the right thread! *Grr.. Apart form that:

[EUNationalist]

I posted that in the other thread, strange. This is a new thread? I'm not sure if I want a never-ending discussion about the EU as well.

About the superstate, I just thought it was funny the way you talked about superstates. Doesn't mean I want to see one. Even if the EU becomes something along those lines it may redefine the meaning of the word.

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

That's not called values, its called lacking a military and having a different approach for the same goals.

Yes, EU and USA are not opposed, but complementary.