Britain Blasts NATO Members Over Reluctance in Afghanistan

[alyster]

A little while ago there was another "Estonian" who posted the same sort of thing here. I wonder if he's any relation to you?

Nope. You can check the IPs.

Too many valid points

Haven't yet seen one.

Nationalsocialists took over goverment after Hitler's NSDAP became the strongest faction in the Reichstag due to elections and allied with the National Conservatives. Many of those later bitterly rued that move.

However they did not have majority. In 1933 he was pointed a chanclor democradically, yes, however in 1934 he took power undemocradically, if you wanted to argue of the democradic point here. I however pointed out originally that last time right-wing nationalist got to power it ended with the biggest war and the worst genocide ever. I can't belive we have a nazi on this forum. No wonder you post BS.

I am not your footboy, you can find it alone. Or you can't.

You said islam seeks world domination, yet you have failed to provide back-up for this claim - meaning your words are just waste or breath. BTW these sites had no such info as you suggested they had.

Oh, when German troops entered the Baltics in 1941, many areas already were cleansed - not to mention those thousands Baltics woking in concentration camps for the Germans in Poland.

Read "Estonians in the German Service 1941-45" by Rolf Michaelis. Estonians weren't used in the Polish camps. And we're finno-ugrics, not balts, Latvians and Lithuanians are balts.

Right-wing nationalists even loved this fact this much they tried to kill Hitler to stop this.

They didn't try to kill him because they disagreed with holocaust, but because they were losing the war. They had to make peace with western allies, but Hitler disagreed with it.

Actually they had a strong socialistic wing

Socialist wing died with Ernst Röhm.

How does this stand in contradition of a socialistic policy?

What ever kind of socialism we're talking about we're eventually talking about Karl Marx. Even the modern social democrats started off from the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.

Even if you wanted you could not. You have no clue about anything.

I've always found it quite difficult to make commies understand the true nature of USSR. Comes out it's similar with nazis, they refues to belive their own history.

So there were no terror attacks prior to 9/11.?

Contradiction to your own case of point. You just tried to prove terrorists are denegerous.

What's with US/Western violent meddling in other countries affairs all the time?

What are you talking about? Perhaps that US stopped the Kuwait invasion by Saddam and saved the day. Or the fact that US deployed their forces to Germany to help stand against possible communist agression. Or the fact that thousands of yanks have died liberating Southern Korea so these people could decide themselves how to run their country. They tried the same in Vietnam, but sadly failed. Or are you pissed off that US sent their forces to Kosovo or Somalia and stop genocides? Little bit before you suggested US should have invaded USSR now this? Contradictions, contradictions, contradictions!

It obviously causes you headache and sleepless nights, maybe I should start a pre-emptive strike and take a pill...

Italy just disarmed one of their cells in Europe. Sure, they are harmless

And now you think the chances of new attacks became less imminent since foreign troops fight some militias instead of those really causing the terror?

If we'd succeed, then yes. However the progress is small. Indonesia has fought such islam fundamentalists for decades by now. Only in recent times has it shown progress. Their case proves war on terror can be succesfull if you deploy right tactics. I don't want my children watching every other year how a bomb killed in [insert European capital] tens or hundreds of people.

These terror cells still exist. No invasion of any other land changed that thisfar. I fail to see German troops in Afghanistan prevent Muslims in Germany from raising funds, buying supplies etc... for terror attacks. Here Muslims are holy and Islam is the religion of peace, only those elwhere are evil, or what?

They still exist because it's Al-Qaeda's tactic currently. The first strikes on Afganistan weakend Al-Qaeda. They had to reshape their structure. Instead of a large network they have alot of smaller cells acting more independetly now.
However the training camps are not located in Germany, are they? If you'd read about the 9/11 terrorists based in Hamburg, you'd see that at one poit in their life they visited Afganistan or Pakistan.

I said harmless for us, like Viet-Cong never threatened the US/West outside of Vietnam.

According to Domino theory if Vietnam would have fallen easily to VC, then the whole regions would have followed sooner or later.

That does not show anything, NATO more and more is considered as hostile occupation force there, that's why more and more join Taliban.

Taliban actually provides them with quite nice wage

USA and FRG are save heavens for terrorists too, they allow terrorists to train on their soil and even fund them. No wonder since these governments are terrorists themselves

Sources? Which terrorist training camp has been located in USA?

That even more strenghtens my position as I said we must repatriate Muslims instead of invading their countries.

Do you happen to be a member of White Power movement?
We can not deport muslimes from Europe. What on earth are you thinking
EU needs immigrants, educated immigrants preferably. Otherwhise we'd face economical and social crise in next 50 years. We'd have too many senior citizens that our labour force has too big buren to carry.

If you can not check your border properly you even should not daydream about securing occupied Afghanistan. Sorry.

And why is that? We eliminate Taliban's and Al-Qaeda's main body and even if they have some cells left pissed off at us, they atlist can not reach in their operations to us anymore. It's like fighting drugs. instead of spening years of finding out how drug dealers get them across the border(in which border guard is helpless), it's better to burn the fields in Columbia.

No matter how often I repeat the solution, a mentally disabled never would understand it.
Muslims out of here, our troops out of there.

That's not called a solution, it's called a racism.

they invited them into the UN as equal partner.

UN wouldn't have worked with out soviets. And they weren't equal members. From Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only 3 were allowed to UN.

They incorporated communism into their liberal democracy.

That's absurd.

Obviously somewhere in the house the US troops raided

House? The link you gave says a car

Small and inefficient - not to mention illegal

Illegal? Because? Because Dönitz was the rightful succesor of the Führer?

[wilpuri]

Alyster, I know you're engaged in a duel with Aptrgangr, but could you take the time to adress my point about the uselessness of conventional military force in places like Afghanistan against a global terrorist network?

Also, I wonder what someone like you is doing on a nationalist forum in the first place?

I mean you are obviously not a nationalist, nor do you seem to understand what nationalism is. Your question about Aptrgangr belonging to a WP movement illustrated that clearly.

[alyster]

Thank you for a intresting point.

First the conventional army. Terrorist organisation, which are dengerous to us, are more of the global once. Meaning their main body is located somewhere in the 3rd world, from where their cells in West get funding, training and orders. We could name some terror organisations which operate only in West, like Aryan Nations for one. Or GRAPO, FNE the list can go on. They are much less of a threat because we can monitor them better, disarm them better and so on. With out having support from Afgan government we would be cut off to do anything about threats from there. And with organisations like Al-Qaeda we clearly have failed. Recents attacks in London have show that they still can carry out attacks. The fact that they mostly failed this time is pure luck. So to disarm these groups we have to go to their homes, disable their training facilities(yes military camps), disable their funding, disable their communications and lock up the mastermind behind it. It's like dealing with mafia, we must get all the way to the top of it, or the problem won't be solved. We can close down as many cells in Europe as we can, however there will be more. And some day one of them will succeed again. Also if some sort of a regime give shelter to the ones attacking us, it is as good as if they themselves would attack us. Had Taliban just mailed Osama to the US, they'd still be in power, wouldn't they? They would be even better off with greatful US aiding them.
Lets put it in another way, if Islamic Revolutionaly Guard would attack Israel, wouldn't Israel have to attack Iran back?

Secondly, yes I am not such a nationalist as many of you. I was invited here from politicsforum.org, because of one of my posts, where I said nationalism is much more normal in a national state, however would cause problems in multicultural state. 1/4 of people living in Estonia are Russians or russophied ukrainians or other such people. So we can not mail them back to Russia, they are as much Estonians as any other if the carry our passport. Some of them have lived here for decades. They are part of our society. Today the concept that Estonia is for Estonians and Germany is for Germans is outdated. We can stop the new immigartion perhaps, but if someone is already here, then they are here to stay. We just have to learn to accept it. However the main things for a nations(language and culture) can still stay. I am as much Estonian as any other and Russians here are just as much Russians in nationalist ways than they are in Russia. They speak Russian, they accept Russian traditions etc. Like the 9th of May - it is a very important part of post war Russian identity.
The state doesn't have to have direct links to "its nation". If we'd sit behind one table I think in politics I'd agree alot more with many Russians then I agree with some Estonians. In fact I probably have much more common with a my age Vova in Moscow, than 80 year old farmer in Estonia.
If anyone says to me race, skincolour, parents or reigion have something to do with a nationalism, then this is outdated. All we need is language and culture. We don't need a state which is only for Estonians(Germans) to treasure them. This race and religion stuff only causes hate.

[Aptrgangr]

Originally Posted by alyster

Haven't yet seen one.

Then read this thread again - all your points have been refuted so far.

Originally Posted by alyster

However they did not have majority.

They had.

Originally Posted by alyster

In 1933 he was pointed a chanclor democradically, yes, however in 1934 he took power undemocradically, if you wanted to argue of the democradic point here.

Who is it to decide what is democratically and what not? At that time Hitler's government was more than popular and people were happy with his governing.

Originally Posted by alyster

I however pointed out originally that last time right-wing nationalist got to power it ended with the biggest war and the worst genocide ever.

I already refuted that, the right-wing nationalists were pushed out of the goverment by the NS.

Originally Posted by alyster

I can't belive we have a nazi on this forum. No wonder you post BS.

I can't believe out of all trolls you are not in the Alien group yet.

Originally Posted by alyster

You said islam seeks world domination, yet you have failed to provide back-up for this claim meaning your words are just waste or breath. BTW these sites had no such info as you suggested they had.

Allah's Apostle (Muhammad) said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’” 1
Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. -Surah 9:29 (Sher Ali)
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). -Surah 9:123

If you have troubles understanding that I ask soemone translating it in Estonian for you.

Originally Posted by alyster

Read "Estonians in the German Service 1941-45" by Rolf Michaelis. Estonians weren't used in the Polish camps. And we're finno-ugrics, not balts, Latvians and Lithuanians are balts.

Will do so.

Originally Posted by alyster

They didn't try to kill him because they disagreed with holocaust, but because they were losing the war.

Holocaust was one of the main motives.

Originally Posted by alyster

They had to make peace with western allies, but Hitler disagreed with it.

If the western allied were interested in not fully destroying Germany and not killing in as many Germans as possible they would have cooperated with the plotters.

Originally Posted by alyster

Socialist wing died with Ernst Röhm.

Nonsense. NSDAP always had strong socilaistic wing and policy.

Originally Posted by alyster

What ever kind of socialism we're talking about we're eventually talking about Karl Marx. Even the modern social democrats started off from the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital.

NSDAP was national socialism, and own concept of policy.

Originally Posted by alyster

I've always found it quite difficult to make commies understand the true nature of USSR. Comes out it's similar with nazis, they refues to belive their own history.

I struggle to understand the true nature of liberal demcracy too. The liberal democrats for example killed more people than the NS ever did and celebrate themselves as humanists and threaten anyone disagreeing with that.

Originally Posted by alyster

Contradiction to your own case of point. You just tried to prove terrorists are denegerous.

Taliban have nothing to do with these attacks, except harbouring some Arabs. But this does not require much knowledge. Anyway, I have no doubts any Taliban leader is smarter than you are.

Originally Posted by alyster

What are you talking about? Perhaps that US stopped the Kuwait invasion by Saddam and saved the day.

For example backing Israel that broke dozens of UN resolutions, without having to fear any consequences - other countries like Iraq are invaded for breaking UN resolutions.

Originally Posted by alyster

Or the fact that US deployed their forces to Germany to help stand against possible communist agression.

If it was the US forces' aim to prevent communism influencing policy here they bitterly failed. The USSR offered in the 50s to drop GDR and to reunite Germany including withdrawal of all troops if that Germany remains block-free and neutral and the Western allies also withdraw their troops; like they did in Austria. It were the Western allies and their puppets in Bonn refusing this.

Originally Posted by alyster

Or the fact that thousands of yanks have died liberating Southern Korea so these people could decide themselves how to run their country.

The more hypocritical as South Korea was a strict dictatorship until the 80s...

Originally Posted by alyster

They tried the same in Vietnam, but sadly failed.

They failed with what? Obviously most Vietnames opposed US and supported the left-wing national movement. But that is surely not what you mean with "decide themselves how to run their country"...

Originally Posted by alyster

Or are you pissed off that US sent their forces to Kosovo or Somalia and stop genocides?

They did not stop any genocides. They meddled in civil wars. For Kosovo, that civil war immediately starts again as soon as the troops withdraw, and for Somalia the situation is worse than ever.

Originally Posted by alyster

Little bit before you suggested US should have invaded USSR now this?

I never suggested US should have invaded USSR, I said if they were fighting for human rights they must have had done it since the USSR was an evil violator of these. But USA did neither invade not put sanctions on them - but on man yother countries including Cuba for not obeying to human rights.

Originally Posted by alyster

Contradictions, contradictions, contradictions!

A good summary of your posts so far.

Originally Posted by alyster

Italy just disarmed one of their cells in Europe. Sure, they are harmless

If you like shows with many clowns I recommend visiting a circus, if it is too expensive for you, maybe they hire?

Originally Posted by alyster

If we'd succeed, then yes. However the progress is small. Indonesia has fought such islam fundamentalists for decades by now. Only in recent times has it shown progress. Their case proves war on terror can be succesfull if you deploy right tactics.

Indonesia incorporated the so-called Islamists, I wonder what the progress is you are talking about since the nationalist and secular ruling elite more and more becomes a minority.

Originally Posted by alyster

I don't want my children watching every other year how a bomb killed in [insert European capital] tens or hundreds of people.

Then you should be concerned about repatriating those Muslims living in Europe.

Originally Posted by alyster

They still exist because it's Al-Qaeda's tactic currently. The first strikes on Afganistan weakend Al-Qaeda. They had to reshape their structure. Instead of a large network they have alot of smaller cells acting more independetly now.

And that's why I said they actually are not weakened but stronger than ever. Small cells, working independently are almost impossible to locate/infiltrate. That's why US forces rather bomb Afghan villages.

Originally Posted by alyster

However the training camps are not located in Germany, are they?

Noone really knows what they are doing on the areals they bought with fundings from Saudi-Arabia mainly. Anyway, Germany is rather a logistics and recruiting base as well as resting place.

Originally Posted by alyster

If you'd read about the 9/11 terrorists based in Hamburg, you'd see that at one poit in their life they visited Afganistan or Pakistan.

To visit one of these training camps that mainly were funded and equipped by Pakistan and Saudi-Arabia directly and CIA indirectly.

Originally Posted by alyster

According to Domino theory if Vietnam would have fallen easily to VC, then the whole regions would have followed sooner or later.

I know. Did it happen? No.

Originally Posted by alyster

Taliban actually provides them with quite nice wage

Taliban themselves get fundings from drug barons and Muslim organizations that e.g. operate freely in Europe.

Originally Posted by alyster

Sources? Which terrorist training camp has been located in USA?

There are many. You have enourmous deficiencies in knowledge about this matter, I suggest you do some reading by searching for sources by your own.
Springtime in Islamberg: Radical Muslim paramilitary compound flourishes in upper New York state

Originally Posted by alyster

Do you happen to be a member of White Power movement?

Does a Yes or Nay have any influence on this debate? I think it is as important as the question you take part on CSD parades or not.

Originally Posted by alyster

We can not deport muslimes from Europe.

Of course we can. We even must.

Originally Posted by alyster

What on earth are you thinking

That the situation will become very ghastly if we do not repatriate them.

Originally Posted by alyster

EU needs immigrants, educated immigrants preferably.

We do not need any immigrants. We have enough well educated people that are unemployed, furthermore when I think of Muslim immigrants a skilled worker not necessarliy is teh first thing that comes in my mind.

Originally Posted by alyster

Otherwhise we'd face economical and social crise in next 50 years. We'd have too many senior citizens that our labour force has too big buren to carry.

You sound like the typical socila-liberal democrat, thusfar I fail to see how benefits-seekers and receivers ever srengthened our economy in ay way. Very much of teh social hand outs actually is payed to these immigrants we allegedly need for our economey despite they often even are illiterates.

Originally Posted by alyster

And why is that? We eliminate Taliban's and Al-Qaeda's main body and even if they have some cells left pissed off at us, they atlist can not reach in their operations to us anymore.

They did not hijack airplanes in Afghanistan, so please spare me with your babbling sending troops to Afghanistan is a good idea since many terrorists walk here freeley.

Originally Posted by alyster

It's like fighting drugs. instead of spening years of finding out how drug dealers get them across the border(in which border guard is helpless), it's better to burn the fields in Columbia.

Since Afghanistan is occupied by US/allied forces, more heroine than ever is planted/produced there. Sorry, no matter what you bring up as evidence, you fail.

Originally Posted by alyster

That's not called a solution, it's called a racism.

Everything liberal democrats ad their leftist fring does not want to hear is racism.
Actually it is racism towards our people to host other races on our soil.

Originally Posted by alyster

UN wouldn't have worked with out soviets. And they weren't equal members. From Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only 3 were allowed to UN.

How many states of the USA had an own seat in UN?
UN did not work without nor with USSR.

Originally Posted by alyster

That's absurd.

The ideas of Frankfurt School and other communist thinktanks and maoist movements like the 68er movement - they all were incorporated. So do not talk BS fool.

Originally Posted by alyster

House? The link you gave says a car

House, car, they are dead for having done nothing. A nice concept of human rights an freedom.

Originally Posted by alyster

Illegal? Because? Because Dönitz was the rightful succesor of the Führer?

Illegal because: the Basic Law (Grundgesetz) never hase been rightfully implemented; because the German folk was not given the chance to vote for a constitution despite the aformentioned Basic Laws says so; because the Bundestag passes laws with 2/3 majority what 3/4 of German people oppose; because German people have no chance to influence politics as the liberal representative democracy does not allow it.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by alyster

I however pointed out originally that last time right-wing nationalist got to power it ended with the biggest war and the worst genocide ever. I can't belive we have a nazi on this forum. No wonder you post BS.

It is you who post "BS" saying that right-wing nationalist is the same thing as nazi, just as all leftists do...

Originally Posted by alyster

We can not deport muslimes from Europe. What on earth are you thinking

Maybe we can't, but anyway, they will be a majority in countries like France in the next 50 years. Then, what is your solution ?

Originally Posted by alyster

EU needs immigrants, educated immigrants preferably. Otherwhise we'd face economical and social crise in next 50 years. We'd have too many senior citizens that our labour force has too big buren to carry.

A crisis ?
Immigration already cause many problems in Western countries : economical, religious, integration, delinquency... But of course, we need more !

Haven't you heard of the French 2005 riots, for exemple ?

Originally Posted by alyster

Secondly, yes I am not such a nationalist as many of you.

It seems you're not a nationalist at all. It's not a problem, but I'm also asking why you are posting here.

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by alyster

Terrorist organisation, which are dengerous to us, are more of the global once. ... We could name some terror organisations which operate only in West, like Aryan Nations for one. Or GRAPO, FNE the list can go on. They are much less of a threat because we can monitor them better, disarm them better and so on. With out having support from Afgan government we would be cut off to do anything about threats from there. And with organisations like Al-Qaeda we clearly have failed. Recents attacks in London have show that they still can carry out attacks. The fact that they mostly failed this time is pure luck. So to disarm these groups we have to go to their homes, disable their training facilities(yes military camps), disable their funding, disable their communications and lock up the mastermind behind it. It's like dealing with mafia, we must get all the way to the top of it, or the problem won't be solved. We can close down as many cells in Europe as we can, however there will be more. And some day one of them will succeed again. Also if some sort of a regime give shelter to the ones attacking us, it is as good as if they themselves would attack us. Had Taliban just mailed Osama to the US, they'd still be in power, wouldn't they? They would be even better off with greatful US aiding them.

Who are the "we" you keep referring to relentlessly, I wonder?

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by wilpuri

You raise a good point. For countries such as Estonia, the 'soft tyranny' of Western globalist consumerism seems far more attractive and can easily be mistaken for freedom after half a century of 'hard tyranny' by the big neighbour. Finland, Estonia and the Baltic states, among others, have always had to balance between geopolitical divisions as they are on the periphery of one such division, bordering another. This naturally limits realistic options concerning geopolitical orientation.

So why isn't then Finland member of NATO?

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Plethon

Who are the "we" you keep referring to relentlessly, I wonder?

It is the Jewish neocon "we", which really means "you people". Here is Mort Zuckerman, a powerful US based Montreal Jew trying this "we" thing on Pat Buchanan during last year's bombing of Lebanon:

+ YouTube Video

[Marulus]

Originally Posted by Errigal

It is the Jewish neocon "we", which really means "you people". Here is Mort Zuckerman, a powerful US based Montreal Jew trying this "we" thing on Pat Buchanan during last year's bombing of Lebanon:

Or it is rather the "we, the keyboard warriors", meaning in reality, "you the people".