How do you see your Nation, ideally ?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

But the genetic evidence suggests that Macedonians are similar to Slavs and different from Greeks.
How is that possible then?

Which genetic evidence?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Which genetic evidence?

This one,
Science

and this one:
Dienekes

They seem to be unrelated to Greeks in this study also:
http://www.makedonika.org/processpai...id=ti.2001.pdf


However, the number of Macedonians observed on the first site is low(N=20), so it isn't much.
But it's interesting to see that even a small sample, such as this one, shows significant difference between these two groups.

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Bardyllis

But the genetic evidence suggests that Macedonians are similar to Slavs and different from Greeks.
How is that possible then?

I agree. Macedonian slavs are closer to Slavs then to Greeks. I view the claims made by Slavo-Macedonians that they're connected to alexander's Macedonia to be ludicrous claims. What I said was that there was a historic Slav population in what is now Greek Macedonia (the actual Macedonia) and that there is a Greek dialect known as Slavophone Greek heavily influcenced by Slavic. One of the first mention of Serbs in the Balkans is in the ealry 7th century when under Empreror Heraclius settled them around Thessaloniki (city in northern Greece, in Greek Macedonia, called Solun by Slavs). Not only that but given that Tsar Dušans empire stretched to Athens and that Tsar Tsimeon (Bulgarian emperor) also had an empire of similar size, it is clear the Slavs arrive in northern Greece. Not only that but at times when Greeks were uprising against the Ottomans the Turks moved in Slavs into what is Macedonia in Greece. The second Balkan war started because of competing claims on Macedonia by Greece and Bulgaria.

[IrishThirdPosition]

Originally Posted by Errigal

Sounds good to me. I would want to free the British royal family as well. The modern UK press and public has a sick and abusive relationship with the Windsor family that I would not wish on anyone.

That's because they're sick and abusive themselves... England is far better off without the Royals.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by IrishThirdPosition

That's because they're sick and abusive themselves... England is far better off without the Royals.

The best thing would be for the House of Windsor to announce they want out. The Brits can then create a federal republic or put an ad in the newspaper to find a new royal family.

[dime]

The last time there were large Slavic populations in Macedonia (northern Greece) was around the time of the Balkan wars. They were largelly expelled after the Balkan Wars, WWI and of those few remaining they were all expelled after WWII and the Greek civil war.

The reason it's called Slavophone Greek is that it is rather heavily influence by Slavic.

thats wrong
they didnt leave until after the civil war
theres still a large population of macedonians but they are assimilated
its true a lot did leave greece after the civil war but the ones who stayed were moved to diferent parts of the country to be assimilated faster also everthing that was writen in kirilica(graves, icons in churces etc) was destroyed and writen in greek Peoples names were changed and there werent allowed to speak macedonian at home.

[FlashVoyager]

A constitutional republic with a free market, services and goods for basic human needs are socialised(such as health care and education). Strong civil liberties with regard to conduct. Restrictions on immigration, no ethnic diversity policy(they have no reason to be here anyway).

[Tripredacus]

I am unable to determine what my Nation truly is.

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

I am unable to determine what my Nation truly is.

So you are most likely either from America or from Brittany.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Tripredacus

I am unable to determine what my Nation truly is.

What an odd thing to say. Do you have any clues to work with?

[kyashan]

I'd like to see my country dismembered just like the way it was before the unification process that so many troubles brought to all of us.

[Berrocscir]

Great thread!

I'll just add an anglo perspective:

Break up of the UK, abolition of monarchy. Independent England (we could give up Cornwall and ceed Cumberland and Westmorland to a new Scottish republic if there was enough public support for it)

A free Welsh republic. Independence for Shetland if they wanted it (or they could join up with the Norse)
A United Irish republic, but with semi-autonomy and full cultural rights for the Ulster-Scots. (I know this will irritate Irish republicans on here, but there you are)

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by dime

thats wrong
they didnt leave until after the civil war
theres still a large population of macedonians but they are assimilated
its true a lot did leave greece after the civil war but the ones who stayed were moved to diferent parts of the country to be assimilated faster also everthing that was writen in kirilica(graves, icons in churces etc) was destroyed and writen in greek Peoples names were changed and there werent allowed to speak macedonian at home.

That's bull shit.
- There is no large indigenous Slavic population in Greece.
- Greece did not have an assimilationist polciies, those Slavs fled as the Bulgarian retreated in the 2nd balkan war, WWI and WWII.
- Furthermore, the fact that Greece allowed the operation of Slavic language schools (affirmed by an agreement between Serbia/Yugoslavia and Greece) shows that Greece was not assimilating them.
- Furthermore, even though Greece did not have an assimilationist policies the Greek population increased largely in Macedonia because many Greek refugees settled their.
- Furthermore, after WWII there were virtually no Slavs their because they were expelled not by Greeks but by Communist supported by Yugoslabia. Those expelled were used by Yugoslavs to help build up the claim of a "Slavic-Macedonian" nation.
- Also. Do you know how desperate the communists were to create such a nation. They killed thoyusands of people in FYROM who exposed a Vlach, Serb, Greek or Bulgarian view. not only that but even worse they kidnapped children from Greek families to indoctrinate them into Slavic Macedonianism.
- There wwere no expulsions of Slavs from Macedonia to other parts of Greece. Foreign presence after WWI and WWII shows this. The only expulsions were done by communists supported by Tito's partisans, since most Slavs who fled as Bulgarians withdrew were Bulgarians fearing Greek reprisals.
- The fact that the slavophone greek sppech has always been recognized in Greece proves there were no assimilationist policies. They could freely speek their language. Plus, how would Greece make sure which language people spoke at home?
- Thats a lie. If you go to old gravesites in Thessaloniki or anywhere in Greece's Macedonia you can see cyrillic. And why would Greeks destroy Cyrillic when cyrillic is largely based on the Greek alphabet. And there is no reason for Greeks to destroy icons, which only the communists did.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Dux

Prometheus, would Slovenes and Croatians agree on returning to a Yugoslavian Federation? Well, add to that comparison, the fact that cultural differences between Portugal and Spain are not that shallow and, for an instance, the languages are not that mutually inteligible.

You are comparing pears to apples. Spain (the territories of modern Portugal included) was a nation before Portugal ever existed. You are not defining a nation, you are defining a modern republican state derived from an old kingdom (state).

The reality is that my father doesn't understand almost a word of Spanish (Castillian one should say), nor my mother, nor my brother, nor most of my friends, nor the great majority of our population except those living near the borders. Written is easier, alright. Same thing goes for Spain: When I travel through Spain, no one understands me, even if I speak slowly.

Yes, one should say Castillian. And what you say is simply not true. I have travelled extensively through Portugal, and I've had no problem with the Portuguese understanding me when I spoke in Castillian. Also, my sister is married to a Portuguese and they live near Lisbon, so I do know well what I'm saying.

Further to it, I've had close family friends from Portugal since even before my sister met her husband, and they are indeed of a different opinion to yours. In fact, it was one of those Portuguese who first told me about the Iberian Re-Union.

Take no offense here, but I must absolutely say that the common distrust between the Portuguese and the Castillians is in actual fact the product of a mutual ignorance on both sides. Iberism (which I prefer to call Hispanicism) is a much intellectual quality, unfortunately not yet fit for the ignorant masses.

Even if we are practically of the same ethnic composition, do you think people will throw away 879 years of sovereignity?

Wait until you hear what the model of a Hispanic/Iberian reunion must be. You are, like most of the masses, deceived by the definition of Spain as a state, not as a nation which she should be. I'll state my case in my next post.

With exception for those 60 years of shared Monarchy (1580 - 1640) which we did not particularly enjoyed, we are the oldest European fully independent nation state, and that didn't happen by random or historical mistake. And we were pushed onto further 28 years of war, because Spain wouldn't leave us on our own.

You forget much of your ancient history which established Spain (Spania) as the first established nation which was the result of the political, territorial and laws union started by Leuwegild and which was culminated in the religious union by Rekhared.

But we won our cause, and we thank God we don't have identitarian problems. The truth is Spain didn't solve its national issues, and we did, long ago.

You do have problems of identity, but the truth is that you suffocate it by denying the Portuguese the right to their full identity. Portugal is a jacobine state where the identity of the Gallaecia Braccarensis, the identity of the Lusitania and the identity of the South are suffocated.

Now you might like to deny this as something of the past, but the truth is that to anyone who knows Portugal those differences are still much alive.

Originally Posted by Dux

Yes, like there are many intra-national cultures throughout Europe, which is no reason to engage in an European federation. Spain meaning the whole Peninsula is a thing from the past. Spain means the country in the Peninsula which doesn't includes Portugal.

Wrong. That is Spain the state, not Spain the nation.

It means a country with intra-national problems, with a history orbiting Madrid, a history of loyalism v.s. nationalism. It means Galicians who don't speak a word of Galician, for an instance. Fortunately, my ancestors were never forbidden of speaking Portuguese.

I don't recall Galicians ever being forbidden to speak Galician. Like in Valencia and elsewhere, Castillian became the Lingua Franca.

Anyway, your language-based "nationalism" is of the same nature as those who call themselves nationalists here in Valencia, in Catalonia or in Galicia, and who would accept a North African who spoke the language as part of their idea of "nation". Incidentally I spoke a few weeks ago to one who is in the local government here and who, when I asked him about the ethnic issue in their so-called nationalism, he excused himself telling me... "but on my father's side it is all Andalusians"!!!!!

Language is not a mere formality. Is the way you think. Language is Thought. Language is A barrier. If Castillian was my language, I'd gladly approve a Iberian Union.

Castillian is more mutually intellegible with Portuguese, than Catalan is with any. In fact the big language division in the Peninsula is western (Portuguese, Castillian, Galician, ...) and eastern (Catalan, Aragonese?). Basque being an isolate case.

False patriotism? That is what we have heard many times from London, Madrid, Paris, Moscow, Beijing. Capitals of imperialism. As I've said, Spain meaning the whole Peninsula is not up to date anymore.

Madrid capital of imperialism? While the political structuration of modern Spain still falls short to what it should be, it is fair to say that the level of territorial autonomy is something that the Northern Portuguese cannot even dream of under the "imperialist" design of Lisbon.

Please, do not sell false delusions. Lisbon (Portugal) is one of the most oppresive jacobine states. It is a miracle that the Northern Portuguese still keep some of their identity.

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Theobald

So you want "le beurre et l'argent du beurre" (French saying that I could translate into "the butter and butter's money"...) ? Areas you gained in 1945 + areas you lost in 1945 ?

yep