A question for the Spaniards

[Gil]

Last year I had to cross Spain to get to Lloret de Mar where I had a meeting with some friends. I only stopped in Merida and Madrid and after I was in Lloret I visited Barcelona. My question is: do the spanish people, generally speaking, find the portuguese stupid? I'm just asking because both in Merida and Madrid most people I talked to either pretended they didn't understand what I was saying or just ignored me or were very rude to some people who were with me. I'm asking this because in Lloret and Barcelona all the spanish folks I talked too where very friendly and understood me very well....which is strange since in that region the local language is somewhat more "far" from my own in oposition to the spanish spoken in Madrid.
A nice lady from Lloret, when I inquiried about this, told me that "the spanish from Madrid are too snobish" and that "they think you and all the others (vascos, gallegos, etc...) are just dumb. Is this true? Perhaps it's an age-specific thing.....

Cheers

[Menydh]

Manji, there must be a reason why you posted this thread on this section instead of the section for Ibero-Romance languages. Or there may be none.. I'm moving it there.

I don't know what is it like in Merida, as I've only stopped there on a few occasions and on my way to Lisbon. But I guess that being a bordering area with Portugal some level of frictions may be expected. Just as anywhere else.

As for Madrid, right. Some are just as snobbish as other capitalines. It is not that they think that others are dumb, surely the lady took it one step too far. You will find that in nearly every capital city in the world. In fact, Catalans from all other towns in Catalunya tend to the people of Barcelona similarly. Things are even worse if you think of Parisians.

In fact, I have heard comments from the Lisboetas about people of other Portuguese areas which are not always that nice.

So you are not discovering any flaw of the Hispanism/Iberism.

[Gil]

It's not a flaw, I think it's a trait! I'm only stating that I believe that people from Castille and Southern Spain are less friendly toward portuguese then basques, galicians and catalunyans.
No flame intended Mynydd

[Turbamulta]

Congratulations, you have discovered the madrileños. Sad and stressed inhabitants of a modern capital. What do you expected exactly? Be glad that you dont have to live with them all the year like me. If you want to know how are the Spaniards, take enough time, and not a minute in a city of exploited workers. Btw, take into account that the non-portuguese inhabitants of the peninsula have problems to understand Portuguese, because is a language with a close pronunciation(I think is beacause that).

[Menydh]

Since you speak of Castilians, there are other facts that perhaps should be taken into account too.

There is always a noticeable difference in character between the inhabitants of the coastal regions and those of the hinterlands. You don't have to go to one extreme and the other of the Peninsula to see this, you can see this difference between, for example, the people from Pontevedra and the people from Ourense. People living by the coast tend to be more open and extroverted, while people living in the hinterlands more closed and introverted. Similar to islanders or inhabitants of valley with difficult accessibility who are usually much closed and introverted.

But leaving this observation aside, I must say that you confuse Castilians with Madrilenians (or whatever the word is). Castilians are closer to Portuguese than you might suspect. That won't be much noticeable to you since you are a Portuguese, and it won't be much noticeable to Turbamulta since he is a Castilian. But it is for me, as I observe you two from my Levantine position.


In the end, what is important is that we must break down the unnatural obstacles and walls that divide us all. As many intellectuals, on both sides of the border, have said, it is about time that we stop ignoring each other and we start knowing each other instead, as we are all sons of Madre Iberia. This is not something that will be achieved overnight, but we must start at some point and the scars of the past are healed... only that this is a blessed land and people, but we are also very stubborn and proud to extremes.

[Arjuna Durden]

Your interesting question forced me to break my silence (although, well, I also missed Stirpes)

I think there are two different questions in your post: 2) how do modern Spaniards see each other and 1) how modern Spaniards tend to see Portuguese people. Deep inwardly, knowing themselves or not, many a Spaniards see Portugal like another Iberian region with the particular and exotic difference that they are an independent nation-state, if this really means something nowadays. Because of this perspective, the way some Spaniards from Madrid and Barcelona see Portugal is coincident with the images they have from other Spanish paises (Pays, countries).

People from today's Madrid (who, like Mynydd pointed out, are not Castilians) tend to see people from everywhere else but a big city like provincial yokels and cities like Cordoba (pop. +300.000) are called by many pueblos or villages (yes, I witnessed this). Only cities like Porto or bigger, such as Sevilla, Bilbao, Valencia, Málaga and Zaragoza escape –partly!– to this stigma. It is the same in Barcelona, with the only difference that their centre of gravity is the province of Barcelona and its greater urban hinterland, to which even Lloret somehow belongs. And that is the origin of the rivalry between Madrid and Barcelona, which is based upon the same idea but deals with different stereotypes, both being false:

People from Barcelona see Madrid and its proud inhabitants through a self-styled stereotype of the Castilian essentialism of nineteenth century liberal nationalism: flashy, arrogant, centralist and authoritarian by nature, and hinterland harsh (de secano). I heard the following comment from a couple of friends from BCN: "Madrid’s youth are all bureaucrats or policemen or go to the army, they still have some stink of Francoist times. On the contrary, we people from Barcelona are more open, go more into business and by far much more European" (sic). In reality, people from Barcelona are not the scant different from the Madrileños but for the fact that the majority are Catalan and many are Catalan-speaking. That is, apart from the ethnic background, they have the same disregard and metropolitan arrogance from everyone else: it’s just their stereotypes are a little different in order to compete with Madrid.

In the picture below, modern Madrid’s perspective of Spain is shown, but with some minor modifications it could be applied to Barcelona:

This map is als applicable to Barcelona with some minor changes

Me being from the Galician mountain, people from Barcelona don’t see me in a different way than Madrileños do. If Cordoba was a pueblo, being from my hills is for the metropolitans one of the very last things in their hierarchic scale. Apart from being taken for a poor hillbilly and an exotic gannet, I had to hear comments such as: “for being a Galician, you do speak with little accent, in fact, you even speak Spanish well”.

So Manji, because of your beautiful Portuguese accent speaking Spanish (in contrast to the somewhat Mongol accent of Barceloneses) and you being a more Atlantic-Iberian than a Mediterranean toast like then, they have probably seen you like a Galician or Asturian. If you are from Lisbon or Porto and your capital manners are very noticeable, they would have applied to you their mental template for the semi-yokel from a provincial capital in regions alike, let’s say from Corunna.

Anyway, my dear Manji, don’t despair. This are all features of petty liberal nationalism. If I told you of my experiences in Portugal and how stupid were most of your nationals at trying to speak aberrant Portunhol with me, you would be astonished (btw, a thing that does not happen to me with most Brazilians, who in turn think –when I polish my accent– that I am indeed from North Portugal).

[Gil]

Good to have you back galician brother

[Menydh]

Nice to see you back around, Manji.. even if just for a post or two.

I would like to add this bit. Some people from Madrid stroke me at first when I first came into contact with them. I found their arrogance slobbish beyond belief. Being born in Castellón, 70km north of Valencia, in my family we are more biased towards Catalunya, unlike people from Valencia who have traditionally been biased towards Madrid. After a while of listening stupid comments which they tried to pass as witty, I resolved to fight them in their own field.

So from that moment on it became lots of fun. They don't like to hear that the people from Madrid are the offspring of the lowest peasantry in the less fertile areas of Spain who, as they were unable to produce the very basics to survive (muertos de hambre), they had to emigrate to the court and capital city to beg for a enslaved job. It is, I insisted, in what you call the provinces, in those small towns and villages, where you must look for style and, further, where one is to find the real Spaniard. After all, their centralist chauvinism is not Spanish but French.

That --and much more that I will not write here for obvious reasons--, said with a good dosis of old good provincial pride and even despise, turns the wheel in a matter of minutes.

After all, it is right to say that he who lives in Madrid (or any other big capital city for this matter) is mostly because he cannot afford move to a better town with a higher standard of living.

He dicho.


P.D. Arjuna, today I have a lunch with some friends and guess.. lacón con grelos. A guy from Pontevedra will prepare it. He told me that he has to start at 5-6 am boiling stuff to have it ready for 2 pm. Looking forward to it in this cold weather.

[Arjuna Durden]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Nice to see you back around, Manji.. even if just for a post or two.

I would like to add this bit. Some people from Madrid stroke me at first when I first came into contact with them. I found their arrogance slobbish beyond belief. Being born in Castellón, 70km north of Valencia, in my family we are more biased towards Catalunya, unlike people from Valencia who have traditionally been biased towards Madrid. After a while of listening stupid comments which they tried to pass as witty, I resolved to fight them in their own field.

So from that moment on it became lots of fun. They don't like to hear that the people from Madrid are the offspring of the lowest peasantry in the less fertile areas of Spain who, as they were unable to produce the very basics to survive (muertos de hambre), they had to emigrate to the court and capital city to beg for a enslaved job. It is, I insisted, in what you call the provinces, in those small towns and villages, where you must look for style and, further, where one is to find the real Spaniard. After all, their centralist chauvinism is not Spanish but French.

That --and much more that I will not write here for obvious reasons--, said with a good dosis of old good provincial pride and even despise, turns the wheel in a matter of minutes.

After all, it is right to say that he who lives in Madrid (or any other big capital city for this matter) is mostly because he cannot afford move to a better town with a higher standard of living.

He dicho.


P.D. Arjuna, today I have a lunch with some friends and guess.. lacón con grelos. A guy from Pontevedra will prepare it. He told me that he has to start at 5-6 am boiling stuff to have it ready for 2 pm. Looking forward to it in this cold weather.

buen provecho:

(also good in the hot summer days )

What you say, Mynydd, about people going to work to big cities being the excedent workforce of regions with better living-standards is true, but try and find jobs in provinces like Ourense, Lugo, Soria, Asturias, etc. So it is the economy that makes the decision for these people (I've read on the net that 2 mio. of Spaniards moved in 2004 to other provinces to find employment). Ok, acknowldged, many of the rural excendent established in the big capitals (like some bloody Galicians I know) would arrive in their small home towns after 3 years in MAD or BCN and behave in an arrogant fashion towards their home friends and family. They are those who, as a Galician word says, "ascenderon de porcos a marraos". I guess this happens a bit everywhere.

On the other hand, I am myself having a look at the job market in Spain. I'd like to go back to the Peninsula between Sept. 2005 and the Summer of 2006. I would like to avoid the big cities but three quarters of the relevant job offers I come across are for Madrid or Barcelona. BTW, how's life in Cantabria? Ok, c'mon, it is surely not so cold there !?!

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Arjuna Durden

buen provecho:

(also good in the hot summer days )

Y que lo digas. Tengo una bajada de tensión tal que he tenido que volver a casa para reposarlo.

They are those who, as a Galician word says, "ascenderon de porcos a marraos". I guess this happens a bit everywhere.

Sí. Es triste porque al fin y al cabo no es sino es el resultado de un complejo de inferioridad. Y la realidad es que no hay nada más triste que aquellos que olvidan sus raíces.

BTW, how's life in Cantabria? Ok, c'mon, it is surely not so cold there !?!

No tengo ni idea. De Cantabria era mi abuelo, y a mí me solía llevar de pequeño. Desde entonces que sueño con vivir allí, pero las oportunidades laborales por aquella zona son más bien escasas.

Yo nací en Castellón, y vivo en Valencia. Pero no pierdo la esperanza de un día vivir en Cantabria... y me da igual si es en una aldea remota y perdida. En realidad, mucho mejor si es así.

[Arjuna Durden]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Y que lo digas. Tengo una bajada de tensión tal que he tenido que volver a casa para reposarlo.

Sí. Es triste porque al fin y al cabo no es sino es el resultado de un complejo de inferioridad. Y la realidad es que no hay nada más triste que aquellos que olvidan sus raíces.

No tengo ni idea. De Cantabria era mi abuelo, y a mí me solía llevar de pequeño. Desde entonces que sueño con vivir allí, pero las oportunidades laborales por aquella zona son más bien escasas.

Yo nací en Castellón, y vivo en Valencia. Pero no pierdo la esperanza de un día vivir en Cantabria... y me da igual si es en una aldea remota y perdida. En realidad, mucho mejor si es así.

hahaha, lo de la bajada tensión es bueno
yo manhana he quedado para comer feijoada (fabada) brasileira con una amiga de Rio, y eso si que es una bomba: se aconseja yacer la digestion por las 4-5 horas siguientes

Sinceramente, Cantabria es tb una de mis favoritas, pero el trabajo alli escasea. Eso si, he oido que hay buen surf, es cierto?

Me dejas patitieso en lo de Castelló ... yo que pensaba que vivías atrincherado en tu castro cántabro
bueno, todos sonhamos ...

[Turbamulta]

En las playas de Santander o La Montaña y que ahora llaman Cantabria, lo que puedes encontrar principalmente es al agua más fría de España. Olas hay como en el resto del Cantábrico, a veces si y a veces no, sin embargo yo noto que hay muchas menos que cuando era pequeño. Siempre más que en el Mediterráneo claro, pero para surf está Tarifa y no tiene competidores posibles.


Los comentarios de Arjuna sobre el origen de la arrogancia madrileña en el liberalismo me parecen acertados, el liberalismo es ideología de burgueses, los ciudadanos, y siempre se mostraron como los enemigos del campo. Ridiculizarlo forma parte de todo lo que se desarrolló para destruirlo. Hubo un tiempo(finales s. XIX) en que ser gallego estaba considerado como lo más bajo que se podía ser en España, pero tampoco los vascos escapaban de un desprecio similiar(eran las partes de España que permanecían más "puras" o en estado primitivo). Sin embargo España no ha sido un país cosmopolita hasta hace relativamente poco así que ese tiempo pasó sin dejar mucha huella, y en pocos lugares se puede notar los restos de aquella tendencia salvo en Madrid, Barcelona(que lo practicaba con los de la periferia catalana) y poco más. Nótese, por ejemplo, que el insultar a alguien llamándole "aldeano", no es de uso común como lo es en casi toda Europa.

Respecto a Castilla. La indefinición actual de este territorio lleva a confusiones, pero no podemos entender por castellano todo lo que fue la Corona de Castilla. El mapa más aproximado de lo que es Castilla es este:




Se podría discutir si otros territorios son también castellanos o no, pero esas partes seguro que si lo son, que es lo que importa. Así que el que quiera saber cómo son los castellanos, que vaya a algún lugar de esos, procurando evitar Madrid por las muchas razones ya expuestas y porque allí apenas hay castellanos.

[Arjuna Durden]

Originally Posted by Turbamulta

En las playas de Santander o La Montaña y que ahora llaman Cantabria, lo que puedes encontrar principalmente es al agua más fría de España. Olas hay como en el resto del Cantábrico, a veces si y a veces no, sin embargo yo noto que hay muchas menos que cuando era pequeño. Siempre más que en el Mediterráneo claro, pero para surf está Tarifa y no tiene competidores posibles.


Los comentarios de Arjuna sobre el origen de la arrogancia madrileña en el liberalismo me parecen acertados, el liberalismo es ideología de burgueses, los ciudadanos, y siempre se mostraron como los enemigos del campo. Ridiculizarlo forma parte de todo lo que se desarrolló para destruirlo. Hubo un tiempo(finales s. XIX) en que ser gallego estaba considerado como lo más bajo que se podía ser en España, pero tampoco los vascos escapaban de un desprecio similiar(eran las partes de España que permanecían más "puras" o en estado primitivo). Sin embargo España no ha sido un país cosmopolita hasta hace relativamente poco así que ese tiempo pasó sin dejar mucha huella, y en pocos lugares se puede notar los restos de aquella tendencia salvo en Madrid, Barcelona(que lo practicaba con los de la periferia catalana) y poco más. Nótese, por ejemplo, que el insultar a alguien llamándole "aldeano", no es de uso común como lo es en casi toda Europa.

Respecto a Castilla. La indefinición actual de este territorio lleva a confusiones, pero no podemos entender por castellano todo lo que fue la Corona de Castilla. El mapa más aproximado de lo que es Castilla es este:




Se podría discutir si otros territorios son también castellanos o no, pero esas partes seguro que si lo son, que es lo que importa. Así que el que quiera saber cómo son los castellanos, que vaya a algún lugar de esos, procurando evitar Madrid por las muchas razones ya expuestas y porque allí apenas hay castellanos.

Ya, lo del surf es por la fama de la costa entre Zarautz y Bilbao, no muy lejana a Santander, donde se han celebrado campeonatos de surf a nivel hispanico. De todas maneras, el clima cántabro debe ser más benigno que el mesetario en invierno, no? ... el mar y todo eso (esa diferencia es notable entre Lugo y Vigo, por ejemplo, y supongo que es más aun marcada entre Burgos y Santander)

Hombre, se sabe que la chuleria zarzuelera del chulapo es algo del siglo XIX (gestado a finales del XVIII), o sea, algo liberal. Retocando ciertas variantes folclóricas, pues el liberalismo no sabe de Nación o Tradición sino sólo de folclorismo, lo mismo es aplicable a Barcelona, aunque no puedo citar un claro equivalente cultural al del zarzuelismo. (Lo que si puedo decir es que siempre me han tratado mucho más de paleto los barceloneses que los habitantes de los madrides). Estas arrogancias empezaron cuando se consumó el modelo francés de nación-estado = metrópolis y provincias, en vez de reinos y otras entidades tradicionales. De hecho, esto una buena muestra del falso igualistarismo liberal y de que falsas jerarquías llevan a injusticias siempre mayores. Un ejemplo, citado alguna vez por nacionalistas gallegos de pre-guerra, es que se promulgaron edictos durantes las Guerras de Cuba estableciendo que para portar la carga de material, "en defecto de mulas, se usarán gallegos". (mi fuente fue comprobada a principios de los 1990, tendría que corroborarla otra vez)

Cierto que el insulto "aldeano" no es tan frecuente como el "paisan" francés, el "welsh" inglés o el "ostfriesisch" alemán, pero te recuerdo términos como "payés" (cat.), "pueblerino", "montuno" o "paifoco" (gal.). En Galicia existe además toda una jerarquía de paifocos (paletos) según seas más o menos bajado del monte y hables gallego con acento más o menos propio, siendo lo chic hablar como los telenecos del telexornal de la TVG.

E cuanto al mapa, Turba, me dejas sorprendido: cómo es que Valladolid y Palencia no estan en Castilla? qué serían entonces? de qué fecha es ese mapa y qué opiniones refleja?

[Turbamulta]

Originally Posted by Arjuna Durden

E cuanto al mapa, Turba, me dejas sorprendido: cómo es que Valladolid y Palencia no estan en Castilla? qué serían entonces? de qué fecha es ese mapa y qué opiniones refleja?

Definir Castilla territorialmente es complicado, por la manera de ser que tenía, una especie de federación de pueblos y ciudades, que no siempre tienen la misma extensión, presiones de nobles y adelantados, además de las acciones de sus muchos y no siempre amigables vecinos, sus fronteras cambiaban constantemente. Además hay que poner una raya entre lo genuinamente castellano y lo influenciado por lo castellano por diversas razones históricas. Palencia y Valladolid son históricamente del Reino de León, aunque sólo a veces, los límites entre ambos territorios se movían entre el Pisuerga y el Cea. Claro, se podría decir que eso es un arcaísmo es hoy día son ciudades obviamente castellanas y ya puestos también Zamora y Salamanca y hasta la propia León se podrían encuadrar, y toda La Mancha, pero si se trata de definir Castilla hay que atenerse a los que es Castilla sin lugar a dudas, bien por historia, por costumbres, por migraciones. El mapa está hecho prácticamente pueblo a pueblo, y es el más exacto que hay hasta la fecha, es discutible, el mapa de Castilla siempre lo será.
Un mapa político de 1909:

[Arcabuz]

Buenas, soy nuevo en el foro, y de Madrid. Pese a que mis origenes son de Burgos y de Castellón. Tampoco es justa la fama que nos cuelgan a los de Madrid de que somos unos chulos y soberbios etc.

Es más, a menudo te encuentras de q por ser de Madrid te tratan diferente, a menudo mal. Apodos del estilo "Madriles" "el de la capital" etc.

Por otra parte el caracter castellano es bastante diferente al de Madrid, la gente en Madrid suele ser bastante abierta y menos secos, quizás porque aqui cada uno es de su padre y de su madre, y aqui confluyen aspectos de toda la península. Nunca he oido aqui desprecios a los de pueblos, mas que nada porque todo el mundo tiene uno. En fin que aqui en Madrid, hay gente para todo y no conviene generalizar.

Un saludo