Slavic surnames = genes in Germany (full report)

[Polak]

Interesting point here that about 20% of German names are of Slavic origin. Obviously that doesn't include all the people who have Slavic ancestry on their maternal side.

http://www.biotype.de/files/Immel_EJHG_06.pdf

Some of the other comments from this German report include that many Germanic sounding names, like Lessing, are actually of Slavic origin.

The authors also point out that many German cities have Slavic names, like Berlin.

[Waarnemer]

Originally Posted by Polak

Interesting point here that about 20% of German names are of Slavic origin. Obviously that doesn't include all the people who have Slavic ancestry on their maternal side.

http://www.biotype.de/files/Immel_EJHG_06.pdf

Some of the other comments from this German report include that many Germanic sounding names, like Lessing, are actually of Slavic origin.

The authors also point out that many German cities have Slavic names, like Berlin.

is there a possibility that the opposite has some truthfulness to it too?

[Sergius]

Ironically, the surname from my Paternal side (entirely Danish) is of Slavic origin, too.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

is there a possibility that the opposite has some truthfulness to it too?

Of course, and it would be nice to see a similar report on that.

[Carnyx]

Cocasse!

Ok, but still a Slavic surname that goes back to hundred years doesn't make someone a Slav, does it? And genes? Well meta ethnicity and genes are two different things.

[Galaico]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Ok, but still a Slavic surname that goes back to hundred years doesn't make someone a Slav, does it?

Indeed, my surname which is fully Spanish, being of Celtic origin exists in two similar words in Irish and has the same meaning.

[Menydh]

It is no secret that most Germans are in fact Germanicised peoples (mostly by means of language), not proper Germanics. It is the usage of the word "German" in the English language to identify the country that creates the confusion.

Think of all those Prusian surnames. I often think that they are Polish.


As a side note to Polack, is it coincidential that you are rarely seen on some forums and only show when you find a little something which might link Poles with Germans? Some inherited complex perhaps?


p.s. a little reminder:
Autosomal DNA affiliations of various populations

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

It is no secret that most Germans are in fact Germanicised peoples (mostly by means of language), not proper Germanics. It is the usage of the word "German" in the English language to identify the country that creates the confusion.

Think of all those Prusian surnames. I often think that they are Polish.


As a side note to Polack, is it coincidential that you are rarely seen on some forums and only show when you find a little something which might link Poles with Germans? Some inherited complex perhaps?


p.s. a little reminder:
Autosomal DNA affiliations of various populations

Of course it's not a cooincidence. Don't be sarcastic.

I'm here to educate people about unknown Slavic culture and history. Few people are aware of Germany's Slavic links, a situation made worse by some Germanic nationalists who play down any Slavic influence on Germany.

I think it's a terrible state of affairs, and should be corrected.

There was also considerable Slavic influence in Scandinavia, but few people know that. They just think Vikings took Slavs as Slaves. I'm amazed by the ignorance out there and feel the need to do something about it. You got a problem with that?

[Polak]

Some notes about the diagram in that report...

The top map shows the distribution and frequency of haplotypes that are seen in Germans of Germanic and Mixed backgrounds.

The bottom map shows the distribution and frequency of haplotypes that are seen in Germans of more recent Slavic background.

And as most of the Germans of recent Slavic background come from Polish and East German territories, then their haplotypes aren't really pan-Slavic, they're basically Polish. That's why Belorussians look a bit different. They're not West Slavs after all.

Another point to take from this report is that the German Slavs who assimilated into German culture about 1000 yeras ago, are now very much mixed in with the germanic population. Because of this mixing, and because STRs mutate very quickly, it's now very tough to tell them apart. On the other hand, Polish Slavs developed along a different line, and now they can be easily told apart from the "old" German Slavs.

However, if they used slower mutating SNP markers, it should be much easier to tell apart the Slavic Germans, who lost their Slavic identity 1000 years ago, from the Germanic Germans.

Interesting to see that the Sorbs sampled in this report didn't show much german admixture at all. About the same as Poles.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Polak

Of course it's not a cooincidence. Don't be sarcastic.

I'm here to educate people about unknown Slavic culture and history. Few people are aware of Germany's Slavic links, a situation made worse by some Germanic nationalists who play down any Slavic influence on Germany.

I think it's a terrible state of affairs, and should be corrected.

I won't be the one to deny a strong Eastern element in the Germans. Most don't look Western to me. These words should not be twisted in any forseeable way. I do respect Eastern Europeans. Some of them more than some Western Europeans. But it is right to put things in their place.

But I would advice against making up new constructs to refute old ones. What derives from your latest threads here and there --unless you gave further explanations-- is an unrealistic overall close affinity between Germans and Poles.

There was also considerable Slavic influence in Scandinavia, but few people know that. They just think Vikings took Slavs as Slaves. I'm amazed by the ignorance out there and feel the need to do something about it.

The boundaries that separte ignorance from myth are blurry.

What do you call considerable?

You got a problem with that?

I have a problem with what I've explained some paragraphs above. Does it sound fair to you?

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I won't be the one to deny a strong Eastern element in the Germans. Most don't look Western to me. These words should not be twisted in any forseeable way. I do respect Eastern Europeans. Some of them more than some Western Europeans. But it is right to put things in their place.

But I would advice against making up new constructs to refute old ones. What derives from your latest threads here and there --unless you gave further explanations-- is an unrealistic overall close affinity between Germans and Poles.

The boundaries that separte ignorance from myth are blurry.

What do you call considerable?

I have a problem with what I've explained some paragraphs above. Does it sound fair to you?

I always post reports from respected sources. It's not like I come on here and write editorials on the subject. I'm not breaking any forum rules. People can look at my material and make up their own minds.

Why would you have a problem with the reports I post? If you don't agree them then I challenge you to post data on the contrary from similarly solid sources. Feel free to also debate me on the issue. That's what forums like these are about, are they not?

You're the one overstepping boundaries here, not me. You've got no right to ask me to stop posting legitimate studies.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Polak

I always post reports from respected sources. It's not like I come on here and write editorials on the subject.

Like the DNATribes source report? If you say so..

I'm not breaking any forum rules.

No one said that you do. Why do you bring the rules here?

People can look at my material and make up their own minds.

So I did.

Why would you have a problem with the reports I post? If you don't agree them then I challenge you to post data on the contrary from similarly solid sources. Feel free to also debate me on the issue. That's what forums like these are about, are they not?

Yes, they are. And in fact this is 2 months old.

You're the one overstepping boundaries here, not me. You've got no right to ask me to stop posting legitimate studies.

Show that you are not playing victimism here. Show where I have asked you to stop posting studies.

[Polak]

What's wrong with DNA Tribes?

It's a commercial autosomal test that's been featured in many respected publications, like National Geographic.

Of course it uses much fewer markers than formal scientififc tests, but I never claimed it was such a test.

It shows some interesting and surprising data, and again, I was fully justified in posting it.

The onus isn't on me to prove it's validity. If you have a problem then contact the company. I'm just posting their data for those who are interested.

If the data happens to fit my beliefs (which have been shaped by a plethora of repors I've read) then that's not my fault. Anyone here, including youself, is welcome to show data to contradict what I post. But to bitch about my posts is out of line.

[Menydh]

You still haven't backed your victimist accusation. I'll remind you once again:

Show where I have asked you to stop posting studies

(I won't even bother with arguing wether I have the right, or not. That should be pretty obvious.. obviously not for you).

Originally Posted by Polak

What's wrong with DNA Tribes?

It's a commercial autosomal test that's been featured in many respected publications, like National Geographic.

"The DNA Tribes Test is a relatively new biogeographical measure using the 13 CODIS markers employed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other law enforcement agencies to ascertain a person's unique profile with Short Tandem Repeat values at each autosomal marker site. It should be noted that 13 alleles (26 in total) is a very small number upon which to base a "racial - ethnic test"; but more to the point the choice of these markers was not intended to employ selected ancestral informative markers. Thus it is being used for an unintended purpose - but the question is whether it may perchance have these desirable characteristics."
dnaprofile

"[...]A company called DNA Tribes is offering the CODIS marker set plus interpretation of the results, by comparing them with "300 global populations". The 13 CODIS markers are highly polymorphic and are used in forensics for this purpose. It is not at all clear whether 13 markers (x2, since these are biparentally inherited) suffice to differentiate between different ethnic groups, especially since the CODIS set was designed for individual identification as opposed to population studies."
Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: News from the DNA testing world: DNA Tribes / genebase / DNA Heritage

"Dr. Eduardas Valaitas claims the traditional Races of physical anthropology have been unscientifically appropriated by geneticists. Valaitais, a statistician from Yale, has made a genetic similarity chart of the human species. His genetic distance chart does not coincide with Cavalli Sforza's genetic distance chart. Valaitais claims to have made a genetic distance chart by actual Euclidean distances given by the data. Valaitais contrasts his work with other genetic distance charts such which he claims were categorized in a priori or predefined groups. Namely, Valaitais accuses other genetic anthropologists of using hand-me-down racial groups from the earlier craniofacial races of the 19th century typologists.[9] In particular, the genetic distance interpretations of Cavalli Sforza have been ridiculed for using "a priori" racial groups such as "Caucasian" not given by the actual genetic data itself. The genetic distance plot of Sforza which mirrors 19th century typological groups, has been used by Arthur Jensen a race and IQ psychologist to promote the idea that the traditional races of craniofacial anthropology have been confirmed by genetics."
Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course it uses much fewer markers than formal scientififc tests, but I never claimed it was such a test.

It shows some interesting and surprising data, and again, I was fully justified in posting it.

The onus isn't on me to prove it's validity. If you have a problem then contact the company. I'm just posting their data for those who are interested.

If the data happens to fit my beliefs (which have been shaped by a plethora of repors I've read) then that's not my fault. Anyone here, including youself, is welcome to show data to contradict what I post. But to bitch about my posts is out of line.

You have crossed the line, Polak. The only one bitching here it is you.

If you copy and past something and you are asked to explain, that you feel a victim because of it only means that you have a very serious problem.

Since you've crossed the line, let me tell you that I do not care for your wannabe complex and that I care next to nothing if Poles and Germans are in fact the same people. Well, next to nothing.. because I would have the laugh of my lifetime if this was anything near to the truth.

[Svyatoslav]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Ironically, the surname from my Paternal side (entirely Danish) is of Slavic origin, too.

That's not surprising in the least, even if one were to go only by the historic territory of the Obodrites of Polabia.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

You still haven't backed your victimist accusation. I'll remind you once again:

Show where I have asked you to stop posting studies

(I won't even bother with arguing wether I have the right, or not. That should be pretty obvious.. obviously not for you).


"The DNA Tribes Test is a relatively new biogeographical measure using the 13 CODIS markers employed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other law enforcement agencies to ascertain a person's unique profile with Short Tandem Repeat values at each autosomal marker site. It should be noted that 13 alleles (26 in total) is a very small number upon which to base a "racial - ethnic test"; but more to the point the choice of these markers was not intended to employ selected ancestral informative markers. Thus it is being used for an unintended purpose - but the question is whether it may perchance have these desirable characteristics."
dnaprofile

"[...]A company called DNA Tribes is offering the CODIS marker set plus interpretation of the results, by comparing them with "300 global populations". The 13 CODIS markers are highly polymorphic and are used in forensics for this purpose. It is not at all clear whether 13 markers (x2, since these are biparentally inherited) suffice to differentiate between different ethnic groups, especially since the CODIS set was designed for individual identification as opposed to population studies."
Dienekes\' Anthropology Blog: News from the DNA testing world: DNA Tribes / genebase / DNA Heritage

"Dr. Eduardas Valaitas claims the traditional Races of physical anthropology have been unscientifically appropriated by geneticists. Valaitais, a statistician from Yale, has made a genetic similarity chart of the human species. His genetic distance chart does not coincide with Cavalli Sforza's genetic distance chart. Valaitais claims to have made a genetic distance chart by actual Euclidean distances given by the data. Valaitais contrasts his work with other genetic distance charts such which he claims were categorized in a priori or predefined groups. Namely, Valaitais accuses other genetic anthropologists of using hand-me-down racial groups from the earlier craniofacial races of the 19th century typologists.[9]