Myths of British ancestry

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

on skadi they do
http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_b/papers/RSPB20063627.pdf
and
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...full/19/7/1008

I post on Skadi, and that's a gross caricature of the understandings held there. I looked at the two quotes, and broadly agree with both [at least in terms of their application to the eastern parts of lowland England] but fail to see how they support 'wiping out'. Devastation did occasionally occur, but on a highly localised scale [and often independent of Germanic involvement, what with plague, economic breakdown and societal collapse]. Other parts saw the Britons fare better.

Originally Posted by Mynydd

As an exercise, I would suggest to tell an average British that he/she is a a Germanic. This is what happened to me with an English young lady last winter..

What have the woefully poor educational standards in my country have to do with this? I suggest you help inform people rather than mock them.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

I post on Skadi, and that's a gross caricature of the understandings held there.

Are you perhaps suggesting that what is written there shouldn't be taken seriously? or that it should be interpreted in a way different to the intended?

I looked at the two quotes, and broadly agree with both [at least in terms of their application to the eastern parts of lowland England] but fail to see how they support 'wiping out'.

It suggests a wiping out. How come you fail to see it but agree at the same time?

Devastation did occasionally occur, but on a highly localised scale [and often independent of Germanic involvement, what with plague, economic breakdown and societal collapse]. Other parts saw the Britons fare better.

It must have been a gender biased plague. It is the Y-chromosome which the study suggests that it was wiped out.

What have the woefully poor educational standards in my country have to do with this? I suggest you help inform people rather than mock them.

Where was the mockery? My intention was to stress on that difference to try put a distance in a situation which was being heated up after no few drinks.

As for her educational standards, I would say that she was a well educated, public school young lady. One should not forget that one of the definitions for Germanic in the dictionary is that of German.

Main Entry: 1Ger·man·ic
Pronunciation: (")j&r-'ma-nik
Function: adjective
1 : GERMAN
2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Germanic-speaking peoples
3 : of, relating to, or constituting Germanic

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Are you perhaps suggesting that what is written there shouldn't be taken seriously? or that it should be interpreted in a way different to the intended?

This is pointless unless you point out to me the opinions on Skadi that you're talking about, and that would be VERY tiresome!

It suggests a wiping out. How come you fail to see it but agree at the same time?

Wiping out sounds violent. Being simply more successful breeders is something quite different.

It must have been a gender biased plague. It is the Y-chromosome which the study suggests that it was wiped out.

The study suggest very little of the sort, and is quite typical an example of work done on genetics and history by people with little knowledge of ethnic history.
South eastern England has ALWAYS had more in common with the nearby continental coasts than with the highland zone of northwestern Britain.
Just because British speech survived among the people in the west, doesn't mean that the former British speakers in the SE would have had identical genotypes to them, before Germanisation. We've already mentioned the Belgic migrations [which I interpret as the last wave in the movement of Celts from the right bank of the Rhine and so similar ancestry to Flemings and Dutchmen should not surprise here].

As for her educational standards, I would say that she was a well educated, public school young lady.

I meant educational standards in the sense of universal ideals, not the ability to rise in a system that seems intent in churning out ignorants.

One should not forget that one of the definitions for Germanic in the dictionary is that of Germanic

That's ridiculous - the dictionary makers have surrendered to ignorant misuse, or are engaged in political subterfuge to ensure the English forget their Germandom.

[Menydh]

I'll come back to the rest tomorrow, but for tonight..

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

That's ridiculous - the dictionary makers have surrendered to ignorant misuse, or are engaged in political subterfuge to ensure the English forget their Germandom.

Probably as much of a subterfuge as naming the Deutsch Germans in the English language.

We must be looking at a subterfuge of old roots here. When would you say that German was first used to misleadingly call the Deutsch?

[Llywarch Hen]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I'll come back to the rest tomorrow, but for tonight..
Probably as much of a subterfuge as naming the Deutsch Germans in the English language.

There has of course been a conspiracy against this since 1066...

We must be looking at a subterfuge of old roots here. When would you say that German was first used to misleadingly call the Deutsch?

Tis easy answered;
German (2) "Teuton," 1530, from L. Germanus, first attested in writings of Julius Caesar, who used Germani to designate a group of tribes in northeastern Gaul, origin unknown, probably the name of an individual tribe. It is perhaps of Gaulish (Celtic) origin, perhaps originally meaning "noisy" (cf. O.Ir. garim "to shout") or "neighbor" (cf. O.Ir. gair "neighbor"). The earlier Eng. word was Almain or Dutch.

Clearly a Scholarly Classicism.

Also see;
Dutch
c.1380, used first of Germans generally, after c.1600 of Hollanders, from M.Du. duutsch, from O.H.G. duit-isc, corresponding to O.E. þeodisc "belonging to the people," used especially of the common language of Germanic people, from þeod "people, race, nation," from P.Gmc. *theudo "popular, national" (see Teutonic), from PIE base *teuta- "people" (cf. O.Ir. tuoth "people," O.Lith. tauta "people," O.Prus. tauto "country," Oscan touto "community"). As a language name, first recorded as L. theodice, 786 C.E. in correspondence between Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. First reference to the German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later. The sense was extended from the language to the people who spoke it (in Ger., Diutisklant, ancestor of Deutschland, was in use by 13c.). Sense narrowed to "of the Netherlands" in 17c., after they became a united, independent state and the focus of English attention and rivalry. In Holland, duitsch is used of the people of Germany. The M.E. sense survives in Pennsylvania Dutch, who immigrated from the Rhineland and Switzerland. Since 1608, Dutch (adj.) has been a "pejorative label pinned by English speakers on almost anything they regard as inferior, irregular, or contrary to 'normal' (i.e., their own) practice" [Rawson]. E.g. Dutch treat (1887), Dutch uncle (1838), etc. -- probably exceeded in such usage only by Indian and Irish -- reflecting first British commercial and military rivalry and later heavy Ger. immigration to U.S.
The Dutch themselves spoke English well enough to understand the unsavory connotations of the label and in 1934 Dutch officials were ordered by their government to stop using the term Dutch. Instead, they were to rewrite their sentences so as to employ the official The Netherlands. [Rawson]

[Susi]

Originally Posted by Llywarch Hen

I meant educational standards in the sense of universal ideals, not the ability to rise in a system that seems intent in churning out ignorants.

Well that really depends... most of the kids in my school I would say aren't willing to learn. You put something in front of them that presents a mild challenge, they whine to their parents, the teacher is disciplined for setting a task that is too difficult, and then the rest of the time, the work is incredibly easy. I mean, in Spanish, we are still on the conjugation of -ar verbs. Regular -ar verbs.... Yes... I have German tutoring, and I'm almost done the first book in less time than I've had Spanish class(I only go once a week to German).

It depends on the teacher also. My English teacher is amazing. She doesn't take any crap from the students, and if you don't argue correctly in an essay, you don't cite correctly, or you just write crap... she fails you. It's pleasant. I do well for doing hard work. People who don't do work or don't try don't do well... it's how school should work.

well, some of you English people just look like you were Slavs. I used to think that you were Germanic :S the Celts were from modern Slovakia and Modern Polen?

I think Gerrard claimed that he had ancestors from Slovakia?

Btw, 75% of British people have bloodlines of Basque while the rest have Celt?

Explains why some of you look like Albinos.

[Menydh]

Same as here.

[Susi]

Originally Posted by hey

well, some of you English people just look like you were Slavs. I used to think that you were Germanic :S the Celts were from modern Slovakia and Modern Polen?

I think Gerrard claimed that he had ancestors from Slovakia?

Btw, 75% of British people have bloodlines of Basque while the rest have Celt?

Explains why some of you look like Albinos.

Register an account if you want to argue.

Some of us English people look like we are Germanic.

And no, Slavs are from modern Slavic countries who immigrate to the UK because they can make money here. This is why some "English" look Slavic

75% of British have the bloodline of the Basques? Where the heck are you getting this from? o_O

To say England is completely ungermanic is ridiculous.