[split] Artorius and the spread of the Sarmatians

[svin]

What about other "facts" in this film? Like the origin of King Arthur? Sarmathian? And the director is negro.

[Menydh]

So far as I recall the film doesn't say that Arthur was Sarmatian, but Brittano-Roman.

Also, why should it matter that the film director is black? The screenplay is by David Franzoni, and it is based on the work "The Real King Arthur: A History of Post-Roman Britannia A.D. 410-A.D. 593" by P. F. Turner, a historical research.

Why should anyone prefer yet another distorsion of the reality by a white A-S, to an approach to the truth?

[svin]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

So far as I recall the film doesn't say that Arthur was Sarmatian, but Brittano-Roman.

Was it Lancelot then? The beginning of the film was in Sarmatian village, where Romans came and took the children to serve in the army.

EDIT: Yes, it were the other Knights of the Round Table that supposedly were Sarmatians. Hard to believe, actually.

And one more, battle on ice remined me battle of Russians against Teutonic Knights. "Ledovoe poboische".

[Faísca]

I saw The King Arthur a year ago or so, but I have a slight idea that he says he is Sarmatian. In the end of the film he says he wants to return home, that his service for the roman army (15 years) is due... Right?

[Gil]

Arthur is presented as being a Romano-Britain, roman from his father's side and briton from his mother's side which makes sense and has credibility since the "real" Artorius must have been a romano-britain dux who hold the lines against the anglo-saxon invaders.

As for the sarmatian knights, they are a true element of late imperial Rome and were present not only in Britain but also in the Iberian Peninsula. Lancelot, Gawain, Bors, Galahad, Dagonet and Tristan, the "knights of Arthur" are all presented as sarmatians and, as you can see on the movie, they are a pretty heterogeneous bunch (Gawain is stocky and not very tall, with blonde hair while Tristan has a "danish" look not very different from Viggo Mortensen (both are danish in real life) and Lancelot has a more "iberian" look (he is welsh in real life) which gives them a further depth in terms of historical realism: ancient populations were tied by etho-cultural bonds not similarities in phenotype.

As for Antoine Fuqua (the black director), he directed a good movie, I have no problem or see how his ethnicity can influence the movie since he based the movie on book references... and the script was written by another person (David Franzoni).... and the movie co-directed with Jerry Bruckheimer...

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by svin

Was it Lancelot then? The beginning of the film was in Sarmatian village, where Romans came and took the children to serve in the army.

EDIT: Yes, it were the other Knights of the Round Table that supposedly were Sarmatians. Hard to believe, actually.

I didn't know that Rome dispatched Sarmatians to Hispania like Manji says. However it is known that after the defeat of the Sarmatians in 175 AD, Emperor Marcus Aurelius dispatched a contingent of Sarmatian cavalry to Britannia. The deal was that their [people's] lives would be spared in return for serving Rome during their lifetime.

And one more, battle on ice remined me battle of Russians against Teutonic Knights. "Ledovoe poboische".

Could you suggest significative chapters/events of Russia's history, so that I can find a couple of good historical books?

I find Russia particularly interesting for various reasons, including her role as Europe's frontier and safeguard in the East.

[svin]

As for being frontier, start with Mongol invasion.

That's
1223, Battle of the Kalka river
1380, Battle of Kulikovo
1480, Great standing on the Ugra River

Then, Russo-Turkish wars 1877-1878. The resulting Treaty of San-Stefano gave independence to Bulgaria and many territories given back to Romania, Serbia & Montenegro.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I didn't know that Rome dispatched Sarmatians to Hispania like Manji says.

There are two historical instances when sarmatians came to Iberia.

The first one was in the first century AD, when a large detachment of sarmatian warriors were dispatched to the Peninsula to serve as scouts/light cavalry.

The second one was around 400 AD.
In the Iberian peninsula the Alans (a sarmatian tribe) settled in Lusitania and the East/South provinces, "Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias". They became known in retrospect for their massive hunting and fighting dogs, which they apparently introduced to Europe. A giant breed of dog still called Alano survives in the Basque Country.

Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced most theorists of the connection between Sarmatian ancestral heritage in Europe and Haplogroup G, specifically G2.

Some data from different studies:

"The Sarmatians of various tribes comprised the only group from the eastern edge of Europe known to have settled in western Europe almost 2,000 years ago in significant numbers to still be a noticeable part of the population in DNA studies in all the countries they settled. Their genetic profile, therefore, should necessarily be different from the native R and I profiles. While the Sarmatians are known to have had settlements in Britain, Holland, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Austria and Switzerland in the western half of the continent, only in France is a population figure from that migration period known. The Sarmatians were there at least 35,000 persons—thus two percent or more of the estimated population then."


in "YHRD - Semino, 2000"


Map of Europe Showing Approximate Percentages of Haplogroup G by Location




Source: YHRD database

[Menydh]

I've found some more information on the origins and spread of the Sarmatians. Interestingly, in some sites it is claimed that they arrived in Hispania as military aides of the Visigoths.

This comes from a post on rootsweb.com, "Sarmatians - Asians in Europe":

I posted about this just a few days ago. One of the Saramatian leaders in Britain was named "L. Artorius Castus." It has been proposed that he was the "historical King Arthur." The modern-day Ossetians of the Caucasus are descendants of the Alans, who were sort of eastern cousins of the Sarmatians (Iazyges & Roxolani). The Ossetians have a whole cycle of legends that bear striking resemblances to the Arthurian tales. Also, the Scythians & Sarmatians worshipped a war god in the image of a sword stuck upright in the ground or on a pile of wood (think "sword in the stone").

See "From Scythia to Camelot" by Littleton & Malcor (1994).

However, the Sarmatians were Indo-European, not Asian. They were deployed to Britain well before the first large-scale incursions of Asiatic nomads (the Huns).

[Menydh]

Haplogroups G and G2 in "Europe" region by region and country by country


The deduced information here is primarily from the YHRD database , except as noted. Caution must be observed in interpreting this information because it is not known what criteria the contributors used in selecting test subjects. It is unlikely that any sample set meets criteria for a truly random selection of persons in that area.

Use the link above for information on the branching of G clusters and marker anomalies that characterize various clusters. Reference will be made in the descriptions below to the Britannia-Germania (or simply Britannic) cluster. This refers to the most typical G values in the two Roman provinces that included Wales, England, s.w. Germany, n.e. France and w. Switzerland. These are found also in certain other areas as specified below. In addition to this identifiable cluster, the western Mediterranean countries seem a mixture also mostly of G persons from two different clusters (clades) which are designated for nomenclature purposes as Alan and Greco-Turkish on the clade page of this site. These two clades are rather diverse and hard to disentangle in areas along the western Mediterranean.

The Caucasus Mountains (11 to 74 percent G)
The locations in the Caucasus Mountains as represented in the YHRD database have the following G information. [These are basically the same persons in the Nasidze article so their haplogroups have been determined by SNP testing]

Northwest of the Caucasus:
>Kabardinian people, S. W. Russia, northwestern Caucasus. Known to be 29 % G. About half of the 17 men have unusual DYS 385 of 13/14. This profile also dominates in the western portion of the old Soviet Union. Several persons also are part of the Britannic cluster.
>Ingushian people , near to the Kabardinians in northwestern Caucasus. Known to be 27 % G in a small sample. Because of overlap into other haplogroups, not all the G people are obvious. None of the ones that are recognizable match the ones in the Britannic cluster.
>Digora, N. Ossetia-Alania , central Caucasus, S. W. Russia. Known to be 74% G. 17 of 24 of the tested men have an unusual 11/28 value for DYS 389. This is quite different from anything found in western Europe, but there are a few cases of this combination in eastern Europe. Among the remaining 7 Digora samples, three men are part of the Britannic cluster. The N. Ossetians claim to be remnants of the Alans, but they are genetically different from the groups in western Europe who were also called Alans.
>Ardon, N. Ossetia-Alania, central Caucasus, S. W. Russia. Of the 28 tested men, it is known 21% are G. None are close matches to the Britannic cluster. There are two in the Ardon group who have the 11/28 (at DYS 389) that predominates in Digora, but the sample size is small, making valid conclusions difficult.
>Alagir, Zamankul, Ziga, N. Ossetia-Alania, central Caucasus, S. W. Russia. In a second study by Nasidze, he found 51 additional G samples among 70 total samples. These represented 75%, 61% and 60% respectively of the total men sampled there. These haplotypes are displayed at the Whit Athey G website, but the 51 are several more than would be expected. Did the author add a few? The11/28 (at DYS 389) is again extremely common at these locations.

Northeast of the Caucasus:
> Rutulia, S. W. Russia. Known to be 38% G. However the DNA values obtained here have no counterpart at all to those west of the Caucasus and are considerably genetically distant from those found in the Britannic cluster.
> Lezginians, S. W. Russia . Known to be 32% G in a small sample of 19 men. The DNA pattern has little in common with the Britannic cluster, but, unlike Rutulia, is a little closer to the DNA patterns to the west. Like the Kabardinians, about half have the unusual DYS 385 of 13/14 or something similar.
>Darginians, S. W. Russia. In a small sample of 26 men, found to be 4% G. The DNA profile of the sole individual G person is not obvious.
>Chechnia, S. W. Russia . [It is actually close to the midpoint of the north Caucasus.] In a small sample of 19 men, 5% found to be G. The DNA profile of the sole individual G person is not obvious.

South of the Caucasus:
>Georgia. Known to be about 31% G. Among the 24 G men composing this 31% group, four meet the author's criteria for being part of the Britannic cluster. Among the locations in the Caucasus, Georgia seems to have the closest genetic link to the Britannic cluster. Another subgroup contains men closely related to the Kabardinians and Lezginians who live north of the Caucasus. Within Georgia is the area called South Ossetia which wants to be independent. The Caucasus study included a large group from there. For some reason these are not in the YHRD database, and none were reported as G persons. However, they also were never checked for the G mutation in that study. So the proportion of G persons in South Ossetia is an important omission. It is difficult to believe it is zero.
>Armenia. Known to be about 11% G. Among the 11 G men composing this 11% group, none meet criteria for being part of the Britannic cluster. A great diversity of G DNA profiles seen, such as in Turkey. There might be some bias toward the profiles seen among the Kabardinians north of the Caucasus.
>Azerbaijan . Known to be about 18% G. Among the 6 men composing this 18% groups, none meets criteria for being part of the Britannic cluster. These 6 men are not enough to draw any other conclusions.
>Abazinia, western Georgia. Known to be 29% G in a small sample. The three men representing this 29% group have marker values different from the Britannic cluster. However, they are consistent with the other western European G values.
>Abkhazia, western Georgia. No G persons in 12 samples.

CONCLUSIONS — Georgia, south of the Caucusus, seems to have the highest percentage of genetic near-matches within the Caucasus region to northwestern Europe G persons. Because the number is small and a minority within the G community, a deduction that Georgia is the original homeland would be on shaky ground. .

North Ossetia has by far the highest percentage of G persons in the world.

The dominant cluster of the Kabardinians and Lezginians (characterized by DYS 385 of 13/14) is also a minority within Georgia and is characteristic of much of the G in the western portion of the old Soviet Union. The North Ossetian cluster is characterized by DYS 389 of 11/28 and is uncommon at any other location currently with samples avilable.

One partial explanation for the presence of the Britannic cluster in the north may be the practice of intermarriage across the mountains by princes and princesses. (see Sulimirski, The Sarmatians , p. 198)

Turkey (abt. 11 percent G)

A 2004 study found 57 G men among 523 DNA samples. Some regional variation within Turkey was reported in this study, but there were not enough samples in each region to be statistically reliable.
Cinnioglu\'s study of Y chromosomes in Anatolia Turkey
Some of the marker combinations in the Cinnioglu study are similar to those seen in the nearby Caucasus Mountains and to central Greece and Macedonia and to those among the Iraqi Kurds. It is not sure who the immediate ancestors of these men were. During the Roman Empire, one group of Alans was responsible for raids into today's Iran, and this Turkish group may be the one. Some of the G's in Turkey might also be descendants of Alans hired by the Byzantine emporers at times. They might also be descendants of the Cimmerians who were described as arriving in Anatolia when expelled from the northern Caucasus Mtns. in the 700s B.C.E. by the Scythians, to whom they might have been related. The Scythians were also described as cavalrymen speaking a Persian language, a description applied also to Sarmatians.

Only 1 of the 57 Turkish men meets criteria for being part of the Britannic cluster. Most of the men fail to match by at least 3 markers meaning the relationship to the Britannic cluster is remote. The Turks are characterized by an usually large percentage of 21 at DYS 390 — almost half the total. This same 21 pattern is seen among the Iraqi Kurds where one sample showed one very common haplotype among them.

Southeastern European Countries (abt. 0-4 percent G)
The following percentages of G persons in southeastern European countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Albania. abt. 0-2% There are 0 to 2 likely G men in 101 cases in YHRD. Two men in the study have marker patterns that could belong to either G or another group.

Bosnia-Herzegovina 1-2% . There is just 1 in 110 total samples taken at Mostar, Doboj-Banja-Luka and Sarajevo for YHRD that is highly likely G haplogroup. There were 2 other men who might be G, but their pattern might also be that of another haplogroup. None of these men belong to the Britannic cluster.

Bulgaria. 4-8% There are 5 in 122 cases (4% of the total) at YHRD highly likely to be G persons. There are six others (4% of the total) who might be G, but their marker values overlap other haplogroups. Unlike the situation in neighboring Romania, none of these Bulgarian men belong to the Britannic cluster.

Croatia. 2-3% There are 3 in 150 YHRD samples taken at Zagreb highly likely to be G persons. There is one other with simultaneous characteristics of another haplogroup who might also be G. Just one of these Croatian men belongs to the Brittanic cluster.
It has been said in some sources that the Croatians, who today have their own country, claim the Sarmatians as their ancestors. If so, the available studies do not seem to validate this conclusion, presuming that G is the signature haplogroup for Sarmatians.
Croatians -- Population Origins
Y Halpogroups in Croatian Population [The summary does not state what percentage of G was found, but it was certainly less than 10 percent. The full article will be consulted for details.]

Greece. 3-4% . There are 7 in 248 cases likely to be G persons. There are 4 others who might also be G persons. Those samples from the outer islands, such as Crete, Chios and Peloponnes and the northern interior in Macedonia province seem to be much less likely to have G persons than the central portion of the country. The patterns seen are more suggestive of those seen in Turkey than in the rest of Europe.

Macedonia. 2% . There are 3 in 149 cases likely to be G persons. None belong to the Brittanic cluster.

Serbia — seemingly not represented in YHRD.

Slovenia. 2% . There are 3 in 121 YHRD samples taken at Ljubljana highly likely to be G persons. None belong to the Brittanic cluster.

CONCLUSION — There are seemingly only small percentages of G persons in southeastern Europe. None of the countries have significant numbers of persons belonging to the Britannic cluster. Greek and Macedonian test participants seem most closely related to Turkish G persons.

Poland and Western portion of old Soviet Union (less than 1 percent G)
The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Ukraine and Western Russia. 1%. There are 3 in 318 samples in YHRD taken at Kiev, Novgorrod and Moscow that are likely G persons. There is also one other who might be a G person within these samples. None are part of the Brittanic cluster. The Ukrainian samples share many similarities with samples from the northern Caucasus region. There is also a listing of 129 men in YHRD who are Old Believers of the Russian Orthodox Church, but living in Bialystok, Poland. Their families presumably came from Russia. None of these Old Believers seem to be G persons. In addition, a 2005 study in Genetika found a 1.5% G haplogroup rate among 68 Byelorussians.

Belarus. 1%. The samples in YHRD from Belarus lack several important markers and cannot be used for comparisons. However, Byelorussian men at Bialystok, Poland, were tested and 2 of 157 men are highly likely to be G persons. One of these men belongs to the Britannic cluster.

Estonia. 0%. There are no obvious G persons in YHRD in a sample of 133 men tested at Tartu.

Latvia. 1% . There are 2 in 145 YHRD samples taken at Riga that are highly likely to be G persons. None of these are part of the Britannic cluster.

Lithuania. 2-3%. There are 3 in 157 YHRD samples taken at Vilnius that are highly likely to be G persons. There 2 other men who might be G persons. None of these men are part of the Britannic cluster. They seem most closely related to the Kabardinian persons north of the Caucasus Mtns.

Poland 2%. There are 34 in 2,110 YHRD samples taken at Bialystok, Bydgoszcz, Gdansk, Krakow, Lublin, Suwalki, Szczecin, Warsaw and Wroclaw that are highly likely to represent G persons. There are an additional 11 persons who might also be G persons. Several person belong to the Britannic cluster, but the values found in DYS385 are most typical of the Kabardinians of the northern Caucasus Mtns. The Sarmatian remnants spoken of throughout the Middle Ages in Poland might be descendants of the Antae tribe of Sarmatians.

CONCLUSION — Poland and the western part of the old Soviet Union have marker values typical of the Kabardinian areas north of the Caucasus Mtns. rather than the countries to the west.

East Central European Countries
The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Romania. abt. 4-5% There are 16 to 18 likely G men among 375 cases in YHRD. The rate is higher is several specific areas of Romania than in others. The sampled areas seem to be entirely in the center of the country. Sample sites listed as (1) Romania, (2) Lunca De Sus, (3) Corund and (4) Miercurea Ciuc. The Britannic cluster is in the near majority, as represented by 8 of the 16 likely men, a pattern seen also in Britain.

Hungary. abt. 2%. There are 193 cases from central Hungary at Budapest in YHRD. Of these, 6 men (abt. 3%) are likely G persons with only one included in the Britannic cluster. Budapest is just to the west of several provinces settled by a large group of Alans in the Middle Ages. It is possible that a group of about 22 men (abt 11% of the total) in the Budapest sample are also G persons. The DNA pattern in question among this latter group is also seen in I1a persons. Without additional testing it is not possible to determine which haplogroup is represented by these men. Of particular interest, most of these DNA patterns have DYS 385 of 13/14, which is typical of that seen in the northwestern Caucasus among men determined by SNP testing to be G persons. However, one study found 10 percent of Hungary was I1a, without reporting the specific marker patterns. This 13/14 pattern is definitely missing in the southern Hungary group at Szeged, which argues somewhat in favor of this 13/14 pattern at Budapest being an Alan signature originating in the settlements east of Budapest. On the other hand, if the 13/14 men are omitted, no likely I1A persons would be present among the 193 Budapest test subjects. This latter situation woul be inconsistent with the cited study of I haplogroup as it pertained to Hungary. Testing of men from that eastern Hungarian Alan region would likely resolve the question, but nothing seems available at present.

Also available are the 100 men in YHRD tested at Szeged in southern Hungary. One man (1 % of the total) is likely a G person, but the pattern is not part of the Brittanic cluster. Several other men are possible Gs, but I1a is just as likely.

Slovakia — not apparently represented in the YHRD database.

Czech Republic 4-6% — There are 10 likely G men (4% of the total) among 252 YHRD samples taken in central Bohemia. Also, an additional 5 Czechs (2% of the total) might be G persons with closely shared marker patterns with other groups making it difficult to distinguish the correct haplogroup. None of these men belong to the Britannic cluster.

CONCLUSION — Romania shows up as the only location in eastern Europe with high percentage of matches to the Britannic cluster. This might suggest that Romania is today the location of the remnants of the ancestral group for many of the Britannic G persons. The sample size of G persons is not as large as would be desired for a statistically reliable conclusion.

Germany, Austria, Switzerland (abt. 5 percent G)
The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Germany. 4-5% There are 215 likely G men (4% of the total) among 5,343 YHRD samples taken at Berlin, Chemnitz, Cologne, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Freiburg, Greifswald, Halle, Hamburg, Leipzig, Magdeburg, Mainz, Muenster, Munich, Rostock and Stuttgart. Also included in this collection are men from a group of German Sorbs, a distinct group with Slavic origins. Also, an additional 63 Germans in YHRD (1% of the total) might be G persons with closely shared marker patterns with other groups making it difficult to distinguish the correct haplogroup. There are no dramatic differences among the regions of Germany as to the percentage of likely G persons. Freiburg and Stuttgart in the southwest have a slightly above average 4.7%, and Munich in the southeast is slightly above average at 6% G persons. Only 51 of the likely 215 G men belong to the Britannic cluster. The G people in Germany seem to be a conglomeration of G profiles from all the surrounding countries, suggesting cross-border assimilation as the mechanism because there was no obvious invasion of Germany by Sarmatian persons. On the other hand, the Alans, whose profiles are quite common in Germany, on multiple occasions in the early Current Era were allies of Germanic peoples, and that fact can help explain the spread of Sarmatians into Germanic territory. In addition, northern Germany took in up to a half-million Protestant Huguenots fleeing from France in earlier centuries as well as a large group of Protestants expelled from Austrian Salzburg.

Austria 8-10%? There are 22 likely G men ( 8%) among 261 YHRD samples taken in the Tyrol, at Graz and Vienna. This is the highest percentage of G persons in any country west of the Caucasus Mtns. Almost all these likely G men actually were found among the Tyrol samples in the western part of the country. Since this area actually represents less than 10% of the population, the G percentage is all of Austria could be as low as 4%. Also, an additional 6 Austrians in YHRD (2% of the Austrian total) might be G persons with closely shared marker patterns with other groups, making it difficult to distinguish the correct haplogroup. Like its German neighbor, the G profiles are quite diverse and probably originated in the same manner as in Germany. The same marker combinations are seen as in Germany. The Britannic cluster is seen in 8 of the 22 men though the combinations are atypical.

Switzerland 5-6% . There are 17 likely G men ( 5%) among 346 YHRD samples taken at Lausanne, Bern and an unstated location. Also, an additional 5 Swiss in YHRD ( 1% of the Swiss total) might be G persons with closely shared marker patterns with other groups, making it difficult to distinguish the correct haplogroup. Three of the 17 men belong to the Britannic cluster. The total number of G men is too small to make other conclusions as to origins. Presumably the Alan Sarmatians and the Danubian Sarmatians who were in the western Switzerland area during Roman times made a significant contribution to this population.

CONCLUSION —

Scandinavia (abt 2 percent G)
The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database: In Scandinavia, there are many persons with I1a haplotype, and some marker combinations are difficult to distinguish from some G combinations. However, very few of these are likely to be G persons. Only two of the Scandinavian men in YHRD are part of the Britannic cluster.

Sweden. 2-3+%. There are 18 likely G men among 718 YHRD samples taken at Blekinge, Gotland, Östergotland/Jönköping, Skaraborg, Värmland, Västerbotten, Uppsala and also at an unstated location. There are 35 additional men in this sample (4 % of the total) whose combinations are closest to G persons, but logically most are probably I1a persons whose scores are very close to the G scores in each instance.

Norway. 2%. There are 5 likely G men among 300 YHRD samples taken from multiple areas of Norway. There are 19 additional men in this sample (3 % of the total) whose combinations are closest to G persons, but logically most are probably I1a persons whose scores are very close to the G scores in each instance.

Denmark. 1%. There are 3 likely G men among 247 YHRD Danish samples. There are 7 additional men in this sample (3 % of the total) whose combinations are closest to G persons, but logically most are probably I1a persons whose scores are very close to the G scores in each instance.

Finland. 2%. There are 7 likely G men among 399 YHRD Finnish samples. There are 2 additional men in this sample (1 % of the total) whose combinations are closest to G persons, but logically most are probably I1a persons whose scores are very close to the G scores in each instance.

CONCLUSION — The Scandinavian G men tend to have their nearest genetic matches in other Scandinavian countries, and a high percentage have a DYS390 value of 23. Most of the possible G marker combinations in YHRD for Scandinavia seem rather to be accidental similarities with the very common I1a haplogroup markers. Many of these unresolved Scandinavian group designations, for example, have DYS19 = 14, which is a very uncommon finding among confirmed G persons. There are several Britannic marker sets in the Y-Search database from Scandinavia, but the YHRD sample set is much more random and only contains two Brittanic cluster persons among the 33 likely G men. There is also a minority of G persons in Scandinavia with profiles most resembling the northern Caucasus area profiles. Outside of Scandinavia, most of the found G combinations cluster together mostly with German samples. Some of these G persons may have come into Scandinavia with Huguenots and Walloon emigations.

Low Countries and France. (abt. 3 percent G) The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Netherlands. 3-5% There are 11 likely G men (3% of the total) among 371 YHRD samples taken at Zeeland, Limburg, Leiden, Groningen, Friesland and an unstated location. Also, an additional 6 Dutchmen in YHRD (2% of the total) may or may not be G persons. Four of the 11 likely G men belong to the Britannic cluster. It is difficult to categorize the other likely men because of the diversity.

Belgium. 2-4% There are 5 likely G men (2% of the total) among 238 YHRD samples taken at Brussels and Leuven. Also, an additional 5 Belgians in YHRD (2% of the total) may or may not be G persons. The number of men found is too small to make any valid conclusions, but 2 of the 5 likely G men belong to the Britannic cluster.

France. 2½-3% There are 8 likely G men (2.5%) among 333 YHRD samples taken at Paris, Strasbourg and Lyon. [Nothing available from western France.]. Also, an additional 2 Frenchmen in YHRD (1% of the total) may or may not be G persons. Four of the 8 likely G men belong to the Britannic cluster, and the non-cluster men are too few to make a valid conclusion.

CONCLUSION — These people are likely to be mostly descendants of the Alan Sarmatians and Danubian Sarmatians the Romans recruited as settlers in northern France and Belgium AND the Alans who accompanied the Goths to southern France. The number of G samples is too small for valid conclusions. It might be especially useful to have samples from Brittany where Alan allies were supposedly providing cavalry support in the Middle Ages.

British Isles (less than 2 percent G)

Only two specific areas of England (London and Birmingham) have test results available in the YHRD database.

In England, 8 likely G men (2% of the total) were found among 371 YHRD samples taken at at test sites in Birmingham and London. Also, an additional 3 Englishmen in YHRD (1% of the total) may or may not be G persons. Only two of the likely G men in YHRD belong to the Britannic cluster, but much larger data sets in Y-Search and Sorenson indicate that the true percentage of the Britannic cluster in Britain is almost half the G total within the British population.

Only one man in Ireland out of 152 Irish YHRD samples represents a likely G person. A much better study of Ireland gathered 797 Y samples from throughout the island. They determined the haplogroups of all these men and did not find any that were G. However, several of those not fully resolved into a specific haplogroup could be G persons. This data for this article by Moore et. al. (2005) located in the .xls spreadsheet file listed there.

Unfortunately, YHRD has not provided test results from the more typically Celtic areas, such as Wales, Scotland and (apparently) western Ireland. Two of the three sites (from other data) seem to indicate smaller percentages of G in these two sites than in England, making it likely that the true percentage of G overall in the British Isles is less than 2%. The author has here in this narrative not included specialty studies in YHRD which provide data on Chinese, Indian and Carib ethnic groups in England.

A recent study by Weale et. al . found only one case of Britannic cluster marker values among 313 men they tested in a belt across central England that included northern Wales. (see table in the Weale study) This result probably overstates the actual rate in that region because they did not make use of several of the faster-mutating basic markers as part of their marker set.

CONCLUSION — The British G haplogroup has one of the lowest prevalence rates in Europe. The conclusions about this population are covered in the first page of this site.

Italy (abt. 5 percent G)

There are 89 likely G men (5% of the total) among 1,645 YHRD samples taken at or in Bologna, Venice, Tuscany, Umbria, Puglia, Marche, Liguria, Lombardy, Latium and Emilia Romagna, as well as the Sicilian towns of Caccamo, Sciacca, Piazza Armerina, Alcomo, Santa Ninfa, Mazara del Vallo, Ragusa, Pantelleria, Trapani, Troina and an unidentifed location. Also, an additional 20 Italians in YHRD (1% of the total) may or may not be G persons.

Because Italy is a lengthy country, the regional percentages are of particular interest. Sicily in the far south has 4% likely G men. Puglia in the southeast heel of the Italian boot has 6%. Latium and Umbria in the center have 5%. In the northwest, Tuscany, Liguria and Lombardy have 5.5%. In the northeast, Venice, Bologna, Marche and Emilia Romagna have 8%.

The maximum percentages of likely G Italian men who are near to the Britannic cluster are as follows: Sicily (39%), Puglia, southeast heel (0% in a small sample), Latium and Umbria in the center (36%), the northeast (12%), the northwest (22%).

Sardinia was the subject of a separate study in which no marker values were reported, but the haplogroups were tested. This 2003 study by Zei et. al. in the European Journal of Human Genetics, found 28 of 202 Sardinian men (13.8%) were G persons. This is higher than in the rest of Italy. Sardinia has three distinct regions, and there has been some cross migration among the regions. Zei noted that haplogroup G was found in higher than expected numbers in the northern end of the island. About 25% of the population in the north is G, and 65% of the G is found in the north. The other Sardinian haplogroups do not have this distribution. The north is the area invaded by Catalan-speaking groups in 1372, pushing back the native Sardinians in that area. Since Catalonia in Spain has a far smaller percentage of G, attention must be directed to the intermediate Balearic Islands as the source of these invaders. [This is a subject of further research] So were the invaders Alans left over in the Balearics from the Vandal invasion or were these invaders Alans who had accompanied the later Goths?

CONCLUSION — Although the percentage of the near Britannic cluster is unusually high in the southern part of Italy, these men do not seem genetically as close to the cluster persons in northwestern Europe as are those in Romania because the specific marker variations in Romania are more similar to those in Britain. If those in the southern parts of Italy represent those Alans who were with the Vandals of the western Mediterranean, this Britannic cluster information might indicate that the Vandal Alans once lived nearest geographically to the Danubian Sarmatians when they accompanied the Vandals to Spain, then to the Mediterranean islands. Those in the north of Italy are most likely descendants of the Alans and Danubian Sarmatians the Romans allowed to settle there in the late Roman Empire. Some Sarmatian slaves also came with the Germanic Lombards in their occupation of mostly northern Italy. Catalan-speaking groups perhaps brought a highly concentrated dose of G to Sardinia in the 1300s. Because marker values do not seem to have been reported from Sardinia, it cannot be asserted with confidence that the Sardinian marker values resemble other regional values. This information when compared with missing Balearic Islands data might resolve what happened to the Alans who accompanied the Vandals.

Iberian Peninsula (abt. 4 percent G) The following percentages of G persons in these countries have been estimated using the markers combinations found in the YHRD database:

Spain. 3%. There are 39 likely G men (3%) among 1,486 YHRD Spanish samples. There are 5 additional men in this sample (less than 1% of the total) who may or may not be G persons

Portugal. 5%. There are 57 likely G men (5%) among 1165 YHRD Portuguese samples. There are 6 additional men in this sample (less than 1 % of the total) who may or may not be G persons. There are 9 men with the values of 12/16 for DYS 385. There are only four other persons throughout Europe with this finding. The DYS19 value of 16 is also found in unusually high frequencies there.

The maximum percentages of likely G Iberian men who possibly belong to the Britannic cluster are as follows: Portugal (5%), Spain (20%)

CONCLUSION — The G persons in Spain are most likely descendants of the Alans who were Goth allies who expelled the Vandals from the Iberian peninsula. The G persons in Portugal are most likely descendants of the Alans who occupied Lusitania (mostly Portugal) during the Vandal occupation of the peninsula. If the Portuguese G persons are indeed ex-Vandal allies, the 12/16 value at DYS 385 would seem to be a good marker for tracing them earlier, but this is almost non-existant elsewhere. So 12/16 may have resulted from a founder effect, where one man with an atypical value passed it on to a large number of descendants in that one area. Testing in old Vandal areas in the Balearic Islands, Corsica, and Sardinia may clarify this. The 12/16 anomaly not found in the other occupied Vandal area, Sicily.


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