Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in the Polish Roma

[Agrippa]

mtDNA of Polish Roma
Ann Hum Genet. 2006 Mar;70(2):195-206.
Mitochondrial DNA Diversity in the Polish Roma.
Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Miscicka-Sliwka D.
Mitochondrial DNA variability in the Polish Roma population has been studied by means of hypervariable segment I and II (HVS I and II) sequencing and restriction fragment-length polymorphism analysis of the mtDNA coding region. The mtDNA haplotypes detected in the Polish Roma fall into the common Eurasian mitochondrial haplogroups (H, U3, K, J1, X, I, W, and M*). The results of complete mtDNA sequencing clearly indicate that the Romani M*-lineage belongs to the Indian-specific haplogroup M5, which is characterized by three transitions in the coding region, at sites 12477, 3921 and 709. Molecular variance analysis inferred from mtDNA data reveals that genetic distances between the Roma groups are considerably larger than those between the surrounding European populations. Also, there are significant differences between the Bulgarian Roma (Balkan and Vlax groups) and West European Roma (Polish, Lithuanian and Spanish groups). Comparative analysis of mtDNA haplotypes in the Roma populations shows that different haplotypes appear to demonstrate impressive founder effects: M5 and H (16261-16304) in all Romani groups; U3, I and J1 in some Romani groups. Interestingly, haplogroup K (with HVS I motif 16224-16234-16311) found in the Polish Roma sample seems to be specific for Ashkenazi Jewish populations.

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Found on
The Roma core consisted out of low caste Indians (mostly juggler castes) which fled from poverty and persecution most likely. On their way to Europe and in Europe mixture happened. But this can't be generalised for all groups, but is rather family-clan specific, some of this clans might have been already different from each other when leaving India. That explains both the distance between them as well as between Europeans and the different degrees of various admixtures.
In Slovakia-Hungary-Romania its possible to find even Veddoid Gypsies, whereas in other regions they are mostly Indid, in some even rather European racially. The Indian connection was proven long time ago both genetically, by physical anthropology, linguistically and by cultural studies.

[ArabianKnight]

Not all of them decent from the low castes of Indian society, it seems most of them decent from the Kashtryia or warrior caste of Northern India. They were forced out of their homeland, when the Turkic Ghazvanid attacked India, and they began to move Westard ever since. They seem to be very close to one subgroup of the Kashtryias, is that of the Rajputs.



Based on linguistic evidence (the similarity of the Romany language to Hindi, Panjabi, and related languages of Northern India) and anthropological evidence (body habitus and ABO blood group distributions closely approximating those of the warrior classes of northern India), there is now a clear consensus of opinion that the modern day Roma of the Middle East, Europe, Asia, and the Americas originated in Northwestern India. There is also a general consensus regarding the approximate timing of their emigration, or at least the bulk of it if you believe in more than one wave of emigration - ie in the 11th century.

The most recent evidence, some of which is not yet published, will suggest a mixed population (warriors and their "camps") leaving Northern India in the 11th century over the first 25 to 30 years of the century. Linguistic evidence points to a northerly exodus through the upper Indus Valley. After crossing the Himalayas, it is likely that they followed the Silk Road west to the southern shores of the Caspian Sea, up along the west coast to the foothills of the Caucasus range, through Armenia and into the Byzantime Empire. This proposed route of migration is based on the numbers and types of words in Romani - Persian, Armenian, and Greek.
Many attempts to summarize their appearances in Europe are available, most of which report them in Southeastern Europe sometime in the early 1300's, Central/Eastern Europe in the 1400's and in Western and Northern Europe later in the 1400's into the early 1500's (3,5). The Patrin, a great internet learning resource, has summarized the history and provided a timeline as well. Although we might disagree with the route and a few of the details, this is a very useful history, certainly more comprehensive than the present page, and certainly accurate in spirit. Also extremely useful is the sumary provided by the Union Romani Espagnole.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by ArabianKnight

Not all of them decent from the low castes of Indian society, it seems most of them decent from the Kashtryia or warrior caste of Northern India.

I don't know if to say "most" of them is not a bit far fetched. But I would be more inclined to believe that a part of them were of a warrior caste, if judging by their innate agressiveness.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I don't know if to say "most" of them is not a bit far fetched. But I would be more inclined to believe that a part of them were of a warrior caste, if judging by their innate agressiveness.

Yes they seem to be related in particular to the Rajput and Jatt castes. The Jatts and the Rajputs are belived to be of Indo-Scythian decent. The reason they left India is because of the Turkic invasions and especially under the Ghavaznid. The Ghavazind expelled them from India and they began to move Westard toward Europe. They became concentrated in Romania and Spain in particular, but they are found in all parts of the world.

An intersting theory is that the Gypsies might decent from the lost tribes of Israel, but this seems unlikely as they were Kali worshipers and did not have an Judic traditions.

The Gypsies themselves have society of upper-castes and lower-castes, it could be that some of the lower-castes catched up. Though many people don't know about this.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by ArabianKnight

Yes they seem to be related in particular to the Rajput and Jatt castes. The Jatts and the Rajputs are belived to be of Indo-Scythian decent. The reason they left India is because of the Turkic invasions and especially under the Ghavaznid. The Ghavazind expelled them from India and they began to move Westard toward Europe. They became concentrated in Romania and Spain in particular, but they are found in all parts of the world.

That's interesting.

An intersting theory is that the Gypsies might decent from the lost tribes of Israel, but this seems unlikely as they were Kali worshipers and did not have an Judic traditions.

Not that interesting. Nearly every other nomadic people in the world has come to believe that at one point or another. And also a number of Protestant-derived sects and beliefs.

In Spain they are called Gitanos as a corruption of Egipcianos, as they were believed to come from Egypt. Apparently they arrived in Spain via North Africa, unlike Gypsies in Central and Eastern Europe.

The Gypsies themselves have society of upper-castes and lower-castes, it could be that some of the lower-castes catched up. Though many people don't know about this.

I haven't noticed this. But their society is impermeable enough to not let outsiders know more than they should.

What they show clearly is a very strong clan-like society.

[ArabianKnight]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

That's interesting.

Not that interesting. Nearly every other nomadic people in the world has come to believe that at one point or another. And also a number of Protestant-derived sects and beliefs.

In Spain they are called Gitanos as a corruption of Egipcianos, as they were believed to come from Egypt. Apparently they arrived in Spain via North Africa, unlike Gypsies in Central and Eastern Europe.

I haven't noticed this. But their society is impermeable enough to not let outsiders know more than they should.

What they show clearly is a very strong clan-like society.

Yes its assumed that because of the Turkic invasions upon India, that they began to migrate, some belive that the Turks enslaved them and eventually brought them into Europe, and from their they broke away from their Turkish masters. It is said that the Ghazvanid brought a large number of Indian slaves into Iran and Afghanistan, and these Slaves eventually began to move West wards.

Well the lost tribes of Israel, are not really lost, they got assimlated and found a new identity. They merged with many of the people of the Near East. Thus all the other theories are nothing more than wishful thinking. Kurds are probably the lost tribes of Israel as recent genetic studies seems to link them closely to the Jews and especially Near Eastern Jews.

I have heard that the Gypsies of Spain did in fact come via North Africa, and thus some of them belive they are the decendants of the Moors. When the Gypsies appeared in Europe their alien clothes and dark skined features often made them to be mistaken for Arab Muslim invaders, thus in some ways has led them to be proscuated in Europe. The Gypsies were mainly Kali worshipers, the Hindue Goddesse of death, when they converted to Christianity, this became the Mary the Black Virgin. In Southern Provençal tradition, the Black Madonna is associated with St. Sara, the patron saint of the Gypsies. She was said to be the black assistant who accompanied the three Marys to France when they fled from the Holy Land after the Crucifixion. In local gypsy tradition, she is said to have been a gypsy (some say 'Egyptian') woman who helped them to land safely. A cult of St. Sara persists today at Les Saintes Maries de la Mer, one of the earliest Magdalene sites in France.

Their society does have have caste system, and even sub-castes. Their are those of the lowe castes and those of the upper castes. They are very tribal people, thus usually the marriage might be done to seek allainces and protection from other tribes, its usually arranged. The marriage for girls is usually ages 12 to 14, and for boys its 15 to 20. They do have clan system, they even have name for non-Gyspies which is Gadjo which means Barbarians in their langauge. They often work as horse traders, Mechanics, Blacksmiths, and forutine tellers. They usually don't go to school because its conflicts with their traditional culture. Although some have become assimlated into the mainstream culture of their host nation.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

In Spain they are called Gitanos as a corruption of Egipcianos, as they were believed to come from Egypt. Apparently they arrived in Spain via North Africa, unlike Gypsies in Central and Eastern Europe.

As far as I know, there are 3 tribes of gypsies - Gitanos as you mentioned, Roma and Sinths, here we have Roma gypsies, it was also believed that they came from Egypt. Anyway, I never was much interested from where they came and what their origin is, for me a gypsy is a gypsy.