Megalithic Haplogroup?

[Señor Malo]

I found in an old thread a map kindly furnished by Mr. Awar showing the distribution of main european/cavcasoid Haplagroups. Then I wandered whcih HPG would be that carried by the Western Europe Megalithic civilisations...

Has genetitiens considered the matter? Has any HPG been recognized as been the probably Megalithic HPG?
Opinons, pls

[Carnyx]

R1b?

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Duchemin

R1b?

I used to associate the R1b HPG with the UP survivors but not sure I'm right. As I'm (or i not sure) not sure that UP survivors and Neolithic Megalithics had a different HPG.....................................
.........................................................
.........................................................

But given the distribution of R1B , it is quite likely that U R Right

[Gil]

OK.... let's get two points straight:

"Megalithic" isn't usully used to describe an age or period but to describe monuments and cultural objects which are made of stone. Most megalithic monuments (like, for example, the Stonehenge) were built during the Neolithic period or the later period (Copper Age) which means around 4500 - 1500 B.C.E.

Let's check these two maps:



This first map shows how after the Ice Age the populations started moving northwards and how the genetic patterns seen today emerged, in which the three "indigenous" haplotypes of Europe (R1b, I and R1a) were and still are dominant and the mark of the Upper Paleolithic europeans.

This next map:



shows how the neolithic groups spread across Europe and mixed with the already present groups.

Which means that if we cannot state that haplogroup X is the "megalithic" haplogroup because

a) it's not a term that means a specific period of time
b) the megalithic monuments and culture were of the neolithic period which means there were present in Europe almost all modern caucasoid haplogroups.

What we can deduce is that the megalithic monuments were built by farming communities and that would lead us to believe in at least a minority of neolithic markers and a majority of paleolithic markers.

Just a end note:

- neolithic markers: N3, E3b, F, J2, G2
- paleolithic markers: R1b, I, R1a

Cheers and late merry christmas.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Manji

OK.... let's get two points straight:

"Megalithic" isn't usully used to describe an age or period but to describe monuments and cultural objects which are made of stone. Most megalithic monuments (like, for example, the Stonehenge) were built during the Neolithic period or the later period (Copper Age) which means around 4500 - 1500 B.C.E.

Let's check these two maps:



This first map shows how after the Ice Age the populations started moving northwards and how the genetic patterns seen today emerged, in which the three "indigenous" haplotypes of Europe (R1b, I and R1a) were and still are dominant and the mark of the Upper Paleolithic europeans.

This next map:



shows how the neolithic groups spread across Europe and mixed with the already present groups.

Which means that if we cannot state that haplogroup X is the "megalithic" haplogroup because

a) it's not a term that means a specific period of time
b) the megalithic monuments and culture were of the neolithic period which means there were present in Europe almost all modern caucasoid haplogroups.

What we can deduce is that the megalithic monuments were built by farming communities and that would lead us to believe in at least a minority of neolithic markers and a majority of paleolithic markers.

Just a end note:

- neolithic markers: N3, E3b, F, J2, G2
- paleolithic markers: R1b, I, R1a

Cheers and late merry christmas.

Thanks Manji,

very informative note, indeed. We deduce that it would be hasty to asignate a given HPG to megalithic cultures. If we are really keen to establish the real "identity" of the megalithic builders we must first establish if it was a culture native to western Europe or if it came from somewhere else (some researchers believe that it came from near east...I begin to believe that in fact no, it is native to western Europe).
If this came from abroad it is necessary then to know if the "carriers" of the megalithism spreaded all over west Europe colonizing these lands (and interbred or displaced the former inhabitants) or if they just transmitted their "technology" to the former inhabitants and the later were who spreaded this civilisation over the Atlantic shores ...but the older megaliths are from western Europe.

From the phenotype point of view, I think I read that it is generally admited that they were atlanto-med. Now, did these atlanto-med originate in W Europe or they came from somewhere else?
That's the question...

And BTW, Glæd Geol and Gesælig Niw Gear (merry Xmas & happy new year in old english)

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by searcher of truth

Now, did these atlanto-med originate in W Europe or they came from somewhere else?
That's the question...

I recall Janez posting something that suggested an Eastern origin. But I suspect that it was an attempt to dump us with "the others" into the Eastern group.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

I recall Janez posting something that suggested an Eastern origin. But I suspect that it was an attempt to dump us with "the others" into the Eastern group.

In fact, that argument issues from the old dogma that "light came from orient" (I use to know the quotation in latin but I forgot it! ) yet, this argument could perfectly be raised back for purposes such as dumping us with the other as you well said ... I heard that megalitich monoliths ranged as far as Senegal .... how strange that no afro-centrist has claimed black credits for western Europe Megaliths

I read somewhere that the presence of minorities of the "North African" Y-dna E3b haplogroups(M-81)(M-165) and even Mt-dna 0f females(U6)are noticed in places of Atlantic Europe all the way from Portugal to Scotland and even Finland.
Now,attempts have been made to explain these findings as results from roman settlements of colonists or legions,but significantly these are beyond the Empires limits in higher numbers.
Now,when this happened?It seems must have been earlier.
Afro-celtic sojourns from egyptian legends?
Phoenician settlements?
Beaker folk from the South?
Barbary sailors since ages?
Or the Megalithic wizzards of Sun Cults?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I read somewhere that the presence of minorities of the "North African" Y-dna E3b haplogroups(M-81)(M-165) and even Mt-dna 0f females(U6)are noticed in places of Atlantic Europe all the way from Portugal to Scotland and even Finland.
Now,attempts have been made to explain these findings as results from roman settlements of colonists or legions,but significantly these are beyond the Empires limits in higher numbers.
Now,when this happened?It seems must have been earlier.
Afro-celtic sojourns from egyptian legends?
Phoenician settlements?
Beaker folk from the South?
Barbary sailors since ages?
Or the Megalithic wizzards of Sun Cults?

It seems E3b1 is by far most common among Kosovo Albanians, Macedonian Gypsies and neighboring populations, like Macedonians and Serbs.