Med influence in northern Europe: I or R1b?

[Polak]

Some silly people like to go on about how the populations that carried Hg I into Scandinavia were gracile Mediterraneans that then helped to form the Nordic phenotype. As we now know, I is related to J, which comes from the Near East, hence the presumed Mediterranean theory.

At the same time they say that those who carried R1b were broad faced Cro-Magnon types. Pffff...

This is rubbish in light of the fact that R1b is the marker of the populations on the Atlantic fringe of Europe: the most long-headed and Mediterranean-looking on the whole continent.

So it's pretty obvious that, in Scandinavia, the Mediterranean element comes from the carriers of R1b, while I think that the blonder Baltid element is associated with R1a. Then we also have some Tat-C, which is probably responsible for the minority East Baltic and Uralic element.

However, I is the most common HG in Scandinavia. So what phenotype can we link it to?

Well I think that it's linked to a very common Scandinavian look...very tall and robust, with deep jaws and deep set eyes. Basically, a Cro-Magnid type that some might call a mix of Nordid and Cro-Magnon.

Because even though I is related J, it's a true European marker. In fact, it was the predecessor of I that found its way into the Balkans, from which I most probably spread.

If we look at those who carry I in parts of Europe other than Scandinavia, they hardly come out looking as gracile Meds. They're most definitely robust, and very tall Cro-Magnon types. Just look at Polish Carpathian mountainers, Croats, or Ukranians.

[Exeter]

Do you mean Dienekes?

[Exeter]

I would not be so sure about that after having been in Ireland. You have an interesting theory but I think you exaggerate the Mediterranid element in the Atlantic region of the British Isles. You may include other parts of the Atlantic fringe but R1B is highest (among men with Gaelic surnames) in Ireland and not in Spain. Fleure showed that extremely long-headed men are found in Wales, but you can find these in other remote and isolated parts of Europe, e.g. Sardinia and the Dordogne region of France.

Originally Posted by Polak

This is rubbish in light of the fact that R1b is the marker of the populations on the Atlantic fringe of Europe: the most long-headed and Mediterranean-looking on the whole continent.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Exeter

Do you mean Dienekes?

Who's Dienekes?

[Galaico]

Well I think that both R1b and I are responsible for the "Med looking" in northern Europe.
First of all, in my opinion, the Nordid look is not so different from the pure East-Med, blondism is abslotuley non-rare among pure East-Meds, and both are Dolicocephalic. It wouldn't be ridiculous to think that the Nordid subraces are an evolution of the Mediterranean ones.
On the other side, R1b Med looking is more an Atlantid looking, closely related to the Alpinid one.
So it makes sene to me that while Denmark, the Britsh Isles and the Atlantic coast in general are more Atlantid due to a higher ammount of R1b, Norway and Sweden are more Nordid (as an evolution of East-Med) due to the higher ammount of I, Iceland would be a mix of both.

BTW, I think there's no doubt of the Middle Eastern origin of Hg I, which is still found in significant quantities there, and that is closely related to the Hg J, as both are mutations of Hg F.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Well I think that both R1b and I are responsible for the "Med looking" in northern Europe.
First of all, in my opinion, the Nordid look is not so different from the pure East-Med, blondism is abslotuley non-rare among pure East-Meds, and both are Dolicocephalic. It wouldn't be ridiculous to think that the Nordid subraces are an evolution of the Mediterranean ones.
On the other side, R1b Med looking is more an Atlantid looking, closely related to the Alpinid one.
So it makes sene to me that while Denmark, the Britsh Isles and the Atlantic coast in general are more Atlantid due to a higher ammount of R1b, Norway and Sweden are more Nordid (as an evolution of East-Med) due to the higher ammount of I, Iceland would be a mix of both.

BTW, I think there's no doubt of the Middle Eastern origin of Hg I, which is still found in significant quantities there, and that is closely related to the Hg J, as both are mutations of Hg F.

I used to think that Nords were med derivatives as estated by Coon but then, I begin to review my point of view.
In popular folklore, the first trait people associate to nords is the blondism but blondism is high in cromagnonids as well and even higher in baltids, two groups "unrelated" to nordics if we stick to the nord=med derivatives.

From there, one can assume that high rate of blondism in norcromagnonids, nordids and baltids is just a phenomenum of "convergent evolution". But would it be possible that convergent evolution make the same effects in three "different" sub racial types, specially in such supperficial traits as haid & eye pigmentation?

I wander if nordids are not rather an admixture of med (wherther Atlanto-med or gracil meds) with depigmented cro-magnonids and irano-afghan of corded afiliation (should Coon be right when classifying the corded ware culture as irano-afghans...)

[Galaico]

Well look at Syria's President and his father



They are pure East-Meds (at least the father), and don't differ so much from Nordids. The problem is that there are almost no pure East-Meds left.

And on the other side Nordids (especially Faelids) are dolicocephalic just like East-Meds, while Cro-Magnids (I'm not sure about Baltids) are brachycephalic, right?

[Svyatoslav]

Originally Posted by Galaico

Well look at Syria's President and his father



They are pure East-Meds (at least the father), and don't differ so much from Nordids. The problem is that there are almost no pure East-Meds left.

And on the other side Nordids (especially Faelids) are dolicocephalic just like East-Meds, while Cro-Magnids (I'm not sure about Baltids) are brachycephalic, right?

This is incorrect: Cro-Mags were both absolutely long-headed and very dolicocephalic.

It's interesting that Coon assembled his theory of the Mediterranean origins of Nordids when many of his Nordid exemplars have deep jaws, deep-set eyes within rectangular orbits, brow ridges (however light), and strong/prominent zygomata: all quite Cro-Magnid features.

[Señor Malo]

Originally Posted by The Blond Beast

This is incorrect: Cro-Mags were both absolutely long-headed and very dolicocephalic.

It's interesting that Coon assembled his theory of the Mediterranean origins of Nordids when many of his Nordid exemplars have deep jaws, deep-set eyes within rectangular orbits, brow ridges (however light), and strong/prominent zygomata: all quite Cro-Magnid features.

[Fourth atemp! ] I don't know what has been going on with my server, but this is the FOURTH time I try to send my reply but each time, it fails ... i do not know why....I hope you won't receive all my replys in bulk.

As I was trying to say you;
I think we should mark a nuance between NordIC and NordID [OID] . I think I understand that most of today nordids are either an Iron Age Nordic+Cro-Magnonid admixture, either an Iron Age Nordic+Atlanto-Med admixture or even Iron age Nordic which has absorbed other un-N elemetns (The Keltic-Nordics for instance are IA Nordic who has absorbed alpinid elments according to some anthropologists,Dinarid elements according to other... personally I'd rather stand by the second choice)

Now, if wherther the "first" Nordics were mediterranid derivatives (by divergent evoltion or by blend) is another point ... In that case we should establish who were the "first Nordics" .

I think [mark my words, I said I think ] it is generally admited that the first considred as enterelly Nordics appeared in the Neolithic and are of the so-called Hallstadt Nordic type (=Classic Nordic = Iron Age Nordic).

I'd like someone to tell which are the typical morphological triats of the Hallstadt Nordics, pls
Thanks!

[Galaico]

This is incorrect: Cro-Mags were both absolutely long-headed and very dolicocephalic.

Oops! I'm sorry , my knowledge in sub-races is still very short, but I promise to study a bit more .

I think [mark my words, I said I think ] it is generally admited that the first considred as enterelly Nordics appeared in the Neolithic and are of the so-called Hallstadt Nordic type (=Classic Nordic = Iron Age Nordic).

That would coincide with the arrival of the first East-Meds to Europe.

What a mess..

[Euclides]

Originally Posted by Polak

Some silly people like to go on about how the populations that carried Hg I into Scandinavia were gracile Mediterraneans that then helped to form the Nordic phenotype. As we now know, I is related to J, which comes from the Near East, hence the presumed Mediterranean theory.

At the same time they say that those who carried R1b were broad faced Cro-Magnon types. Pffff...

This is rubbish in light of the fact that R1b is the marker of the populations on the Atlantic fringe of Europe: the most long-headed and Mediterranean-looking on the whole continent.

So it's pretty obvious that, in Scandinavia, the Mediterranean element comes from the carriers of R1b, while I think that the blonder Baltid element is associated with R1a. Then we also have some Tat-C, which is probably responsible for the minority East Baltic and Uralic element.

However, I is the most common HG in Scandinavia. So what phenotype can we link it to?

Well I think that it's linked to a very common Scandinavian look...very tall and robust, with deep jaws and deep set eyes. Basically, a Cro-Magnid type that some might call a mix of Nordid and Cro-Magnon.

Because even though I is related J, it's a true European marker. In fact, it was the predecessor of I that found its way into the Balkans, from which I most probably spread.

If we look at those who carry I in parts of Europe other than Scandinavia, they hardly come out looking as gracile Meds. They're most definitely robust, and very tall Cro-Magnon types. Just look at Polish Carpathian mountainers, Croats, or Ukranians.

I answered the same post at Skadi...

http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=44546