Who has DNA tested & were you satisfied with the results ?

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Sure? Who are you... Charlie from Essex.

No, he just told me he is from Kent.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

I always had a cult for those who passed away and are part of my bloodline. It's rather a positive feeling, wouldn't you say?

I have what I would term a keen interest in my ancestors (the older I get the more), but more for what they did or who they were than for their genetic composition. The interest in their phenotypical looks is not excluded though, on the contrary...

Originally Posted by Laocoon

It's no less meaningless or pointless than a gig or a football match.

...

Anyway, I notice "the poor", or rather the masses, spend their money on what I consider futilities and a waste. They could save a lot of money from those crappy musical comedies/band gigs or customised cars.

Over here you will see people with a low income spending up to 200 € (!!) to go see just one of this guy's concert...

That is true. I myself also despise the most of what modern-day masses adore and are ready to spend a lot of money for.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Denying genetics role in life? Aren't you pride of what you are?

I don't need genetics to tell me who I am. I know that.

American racists and European genetic deniers are just two excessive trends, there is something in the middle.

How about nationalists who stick to traditional nationalism which doesn't have anything to do with genetics?

Seriously? genetics is a big part of your heritage. The first thing people will notice when they see you.

Genetics is discipline of biology and rather a new thing. My heritage goes back centuries. The first thing people notice when they see me is not my 'genetics', but my face, in the same way I know nothing about genetic haplogroups or whatever of my friends..

Those 4 men were shaped according to the same Republican model, though only 2 can be considered of my heritage (at first sight).

At first sight I could consider many people who are not part of my heritage as possibly being part of it.

Heritage is just more deep than a few stories about Uncle Jean and Aunt Suzette. But I do agree all that are part of it.

I never said it is like that.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Marulus

That is true. I myself also despise the most of what modern-day masses adore and are ready to spend a lot of money for.

The most attacks (from modern world mass) however are on older people who give money to Church...

Giving money to Church it's like worse than spending it on whores and drugs...

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Denying genetics role in life? Aren't you pride of what you are?

I do not take pride in possessing this or that chromosome or genetic marker, I consider it a banal fact of life.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

American racists and European genetic deniers are just two excessive trends.

Yeah, it may be said so.

I am just more irritated by American racists, because their primitivistic crude materialism repels me and I consider it below the level of any thinking person with a shred of decency.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Seriously? genetics is a big part of your heritage. The first thing people will notice when they see you.

You mean phenotype? Yes, that is definitely what people notice first, unless you "know" them only by phone communication, on line or through the exchange of letters.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

As I said, out of curiosity. We are not curious about the same things.

I may take it soon, out of plain curiosity, because there might be some occasion to do it for free in near future.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I have what I would term a keen interest in my ancestors (the older I get the more),

The contrary would have been surprising.

but more for what they did or who they were than for their genetic composition. The interest in their phenotypical looks is not excluded though, on the contrary...

Well, the genetic composition... We are not this versed in genetics, me think. Only scientists would have an interest in it, as they can interpret it and we can't.

However, what is interesting to me, those are the interpretations in "facts" (rather a try of interpretation), and its "consequences". I find all this very fascinating. Don't deny it, we have all read those reports about DNA studies. That won't make a "racist" our of you.

It's true many Europeans are being complexed. I'm not.

Originally Posted by M.R.

I don't need genetics to tell me who I am. I know that.

I would bet I read this somewhere.

How about nationalists who stick to traditional nationalism which doesn't have anything to do with genetics?

It's fine with me. To me Tradition is evolutionary, so is History, it is not stuck forever in a period of time, otherwise you can't keep in touch with the real world. If I were to believe some Traditionalists, I should call myself a Frank (and Slovenians Slavics? )

Genetics is discipline of biology and rather a new thing. My heritage goes back centuries. The first thing people notice when they see me is not my 'genetics', but my face, in the same way I know nothing about genetic haplogroups or whatever of my friends..

Yes, your face and your friends'. That was my point.

At first sight I could consider many people who are not part of my heritage as possibly being part of it.

It should be expected as you're not French. How could you understand, anyway? You live in a much preserved country with almost no aliens living there. Over here, yes I told you, the first thing to notice is a phenotype. You don't count aliens, you count natives. So yes, it's part of your heritage. The same way you bear a resemblance to your father and mother. That's a family heritage. Your people is your family.

Originally Posted by M.R.

Giving money to Church it's like worse than spending it on whores and drugs...

It happens that I give a little something to a Church (in the "poor"-box). It costs a lot to keep a patrimony in a good shape.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Marulus

I do not take pride in possessing this or that chromosome or genetic marker, I consider it a banal fact of life.

Not yet, as you don't have take any test.

Banal? So is the fact your are Croatian.

I am just more irritated by American racists, because their primitivistic crude materialism repels me and I consider it below the level of any thinking person with a shred of decency.

I understand their interest in this matter though. They would like to know a lot more about those mysterious Cherokees. The positive effect, is that they would learn about the many other tribes part of their tree.

You mean phenotype? Yes, that is definitely what people notice first, unless you "know" them only by phone communication, on line or through the exchange of letters.

Phone calls and letters won't allow you to see someone's phenotype.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

The first thing people will notice when they see you

I may take it soon, out of plain curiosity, because there might be some occasion to do it for free in near future.

What was that ancestor you wished you had again? A beduin?

Originally Posted by M.R.

I don't need genetics to tell me who I am. I know that.

But what about us (my/your/our people), instead of just this littler "I".

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Not yet, as you don't have take any test.

It won't change after the test either. I may comment it in some pleasant company only, for the sake of fun.

Several years ago a "research" was carried out in Croatia, wherein even some international experts took part, the result of which was that Croatians are genetically close to...believe it or not...Lapps! Beside Lapps, another ethnicity we were supposed to be close to according to this genetic research were Germans. The Minister of Science of Technology had also taken part in this research and thus the result was highly publicized. So I declared myself - jokingly - a Lapp (it was much before I joined Stirpes so any influence from the part of LelandGaunt/Thief of always is to be excluded). A year or two ago another research was carried out, the results of which were that the Lappishness of the first research was wildly exaggerated (due to small sample) and that Croats have much more Slavic genes than it would appear from the first research. The results of the second research have not yet been officially published, it's just that one of its authors spoke about it in a TV transmission. So I am still officially a Lapp (at least genetically)!

That says enough of the seriosity of many of such researches (though I do not claim all are this unserious and pointless)

I think that DNA tests may - in the future, if and when their technology improves - be of some help in historical research, along with other remnants (archeology, written records etc.) I am looking forward to it, being very interested in history, but to base any kind of present-day national identity on it - c'mon!!!!!

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Banal? So is the fact your are Croatian.

My Croatianness is totally unrelated to any genetic markers or chromosomes, whether they be "Lappish", "Slavic", "German" or any other. I fail to see the connection.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

I understand their interest in this matter though. They would like to know a lot more about those mysterious Cherokees. The positive effect, is that they would learn about the many other tribes part of their tree.

Some people have a serious interest in this matter, a scientific one.

But tell me one thing, would you be "upest" if a DNA test found out that you have some genetic marker characteristic of...say...Hurons?

Some of those Americans seem to be obsessed with that.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Phone calls and letters won't allow you to see someone's phenotype.

That's why I said: unless.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

What was that ancestor you wished you had again? A beduin?

Nah yes, although some Comanche marker would do well too.

[Strengthandhonour]

I have not taken one.
For me, it is not something I would spend my money on, but if I was offered to take it I would do so. The provinces of Italy where my family and I come from have a long history with the Greeks,Spanish,French,Germans,Carthaginians and many others. I would be curious to see how much of that has influenced my lineage over the centuries.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Marulus

That says enough of the seriosity of many of such researches (though I do not claim all are this unserious and pointless)

If you're looking for something serious, you can always find it. The opposite is true as well.

but to base any kind of present-day national identity on it - c'mon!!!!!

Wait. Where exatly did I claim anything similar ? I simply said it is part of an heritage (you may call it bloodline). You're free to find it's the family inheritance of the poor. But being, for instance, R1b (Paleo-European) and not, say, I or J (random choice), I find it something you can be proud of. I didn't mean to say it would make me closer -in any way- to someone from Argentina who shares the same HG as me...

Anyway, where's the problem? That's not incompatible with the fact I'm a French national. Let's move on.

My Croatianness is totally unrelated to any genetic markers or chromosomes, whether they be "Lappish", "Slavic", "German" or any other. I fail to see the connection.

Or Mongoloid, or Negroid? I too fail to see a connection. No, really any connection.

Some people have a serious interest in this matter, a scientific one.

But tell me one thing, would you be "upest" if a DNA test found out that you have some genetic marker characteristic of...say...Hurons?

Some of those Americans seem to be obsessed with that.

It can be serious too if you want to prove or disprove such or such family fairy tells. I don't know, as I said, there are many reasons, and they can said to be valuable for those who are looking for something more than just what a passport can tell.

Huron. It sounds quite unlikely but why not, say there's a feather in my hair. I'm very sympathetic to native Americans --to a certain degree.

But it wouldn't make me more curious about this specific ancestry, for that --no more than I'm already. That'd be it. I would prefer to have none, actually. Because that just would make thing easier.

Yes, obsessed. Money, work, food... Starved. Bulimics. And in vain. They can only explode.

That's why I said: unless.

And that's why in the first place I made myself clear, seeing, and not hearing or reading.

Nah yes, although some Comanche marker would do well too.

Hmm, nah. Those from Saint-Jean lake are way cooler.

[Marcus Marulus]

Originally Posted by Laocoon

But being, for instance, R1b (Paleo-European) and not, say, I or J (random choice), I find it something you can be proud of. I didn't mean to say it would make me closer -in any way- to someone from Argentina who shares the same HG as me...

OK, we all have some things we are individually or collectively proud of. Some people are immensely proud of victories of the national team in football or some other sport. I am personally not, I can say only I am moderately pleased by it, whereas when they lose I am not sad. That is because I deem it a thing of lesser importance (not to say futile), elevated to immense importance by the corporate media.

While having R1b (Paleo-European) or anything else leaves me totally indifferent.

If you personally choose to be proud of that, then OK, it is your individual choice.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

Or Mongoloid, or Negroid? I too fail to see a connection. No, really any connection.

Nah, confusing phenotype with genotype again? I fail to see the connection between having R1b, S3k, J4h or ZETUR3467žnj-whatever, and my Croatianness, ie. Croatian identity. These "markers" are something (at least for me) entirely abstract.

Originally Posted by Laocoon

I'm very sympathetic to native Americans --to a certain degree.

Me too.

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Marulus

OK, we all have some things we are individually or collectively proud of. Some people are immensely proud of victories of the national team in football or some other sport. I am personally not, I can say only I am moderately pleased by it, whereas when they lose I am not sad. That is because I deem it a thing of lesser importance (not to say futile), elevated to immense importance by the corporate media.

Pleased? Well, anyone has a right to be pleased, every now and then...

While having R1b (Paleo-European) or anything else leaves me totally indifferent.

I know that pretty well, you keep telling the same things, over and over again. And so do I, btw.

If you personally choose to be proud of that, then OK, it is your individual choice.

Self evidence truth. We call this a lapalissade here.

You just can't stand someone who can take pride in being the heir of a very old lineage of Europeans who have been dwelling this part of Europe for millennium.

Nah, confusing phenotype with genotype again?

I don't think I'm the one who is confused.

You're more likely to find I in Scandinavia and R1b in Spain; Scandinavians and Spaniards don't share the same phenotypes as far as I can tell. The fact that both I and R1b are present (at a low level) both in the Iberian peninsula and in Scandinavia, is not enough to such a conclusion -- that genotypes and phenotype aren't connected.

And for your information, there are haplogroups which are typical for Negroids, others for Mongoloids, Europids...

So yes, I believe there must be a relation between genotype and phenotype.

These "markers" are something (at least for me) entirely abstract.

Amen.

Me too.

Enough said. Give me of that fire water you are hiding under your coat.

Chacun campe sur ses positions. Le "débat" est clos.