HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Polak

On that map they showed samples of various nationalities, and then roughly put pie charts on the map to represent that nationality.

The pie chart that you think represent the Balkans actually represents Greeks.

The one above that, over Germany, is for Poland.

Which means it's an approximation and not very valid....it's more like an amusing presentation....thank you for clearing that out.

Now, if you can't see that E is closer to I on the basis of the tree and the number of mutations it shows, then don't bother coming on this board and discussing anything at all.

The tree clearly shows that I is equally removed from E as it is from R. You see what you want to see...

Whay can't you just admit that you're wrong?

I can admit when I am wrong, but this is not the case. You should ask yourself the same question regarding this matter.

[Polak]

Originally Posted by Zrinski

Which means it's an approximation and not very valid....it's more like an amusing presentation....thank you for clearing that out.



The tree clearly shows that I is equally removed from E as it is from R. You see what you want to see...



I can admit when I am wrong, but this is not the case. You should ask yourself the same question regarding this matter.

Sorry, it's very valid. It's just a less detailed copy of the original.

There's no way you'll get away with saying that info on genetics appearing in Nature is not valid.

But I've attached the original now...

[Polak]

Admit you're wrong man. You'll feel better.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Polak

Sorry, it's very valid. It's just a less detailed copy of the original.

There's no way you'll get away with saying that info on genetics appearing in Nature is not valid.

But I've attached the original now...

It's not "valid" for this discussion...do I need to draw it all out for you every time? You admitted yourself that it represent only Greece not the whole region thus I don't see what value this has in first place...

Originally Posted by Polak

Admit you're wrong man. You'll feel better.

You are the one who's wrong here.
At least once admit it...

[Awar]

Zrinski, what the hell are you talking about?

Polak explained and substantiated his claims, and you're just repeating "Oh no it ain't"
for the 3000th time.

[Zrinski]

He explained nothing...he claims like that E is closer to I than it is to R....thats a bunch of baloney and everyone who is not blind to see the haplgorups tree can see that you and him are making it up...for transparent reasons.

[Awar]

Not only is it closer to E, haplogroup I is closest to J.

[Zrinski]

Originally Posted by Awar

Not only is it closer to E, haplogroup I is closest to J.

As much as it is close to R as well.

[HellenicDream]

May 28, 2003

The Fallmerayer Thesis in the Light of Genetic Evidence
Jacob Fallmerayer stirred quite a controversy in the 19th century by proposing that the Hellenic nation had perished in the Middle Ages by admixture with Slavs and Albanians.

We are now in a position, through genetic evidence to evaluate this thesis, at least with respect to the question of Slavic settlements.

Slavs are distinguished by having a specific Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, or HG3, or Eu19. This reaches frequencies of higher than 50% in Poles and decreases significantly in non-Slavic populations. The "Macedonians" of FYROM, the Slavic population immediately to the north of Greece have frequencies of R1a of 35%.

We must warn that R1a itself is not a Slavic marker. This means that any particular R1a sequence could, or could not be of Slavic origin. But, a population that has mixed with Slavs is likely to show this in relatively high levels of R1a.

Ornella Semino published a study in Science 290: 1155 in which the levels of R1a (which she calls Eu19 are given in various populations. Greeks have 11.8%, that is about 1/6 that of the Hungarians, who top the list at 60%. The Hungarians are not Slavs, but from the genetic standpoint they could very well be of Slavic origin, converted linguistically by the Asiatic Magyars. The Poles at 56.4% are the highest Slavic population.

We must note that ancient Slavic groups at the time of the Slavic dispersals probably had even higher levels of R1a. After all, Poles and Hungarians are themselves only partly Slavic in origin, and the result of admixture of a predominantly Slavic element with indigenous pre-Slavic ones. As a result, it is likely that at the time of their migrations, the Slavs had even higher frequencies of R1a.

R1a did not originate with the Slavs (that is why it is not a Slavic marker). Its origins in a Eastern European refugium after the Last Glacial Maximum means that it has had plenty of time to spread across the continent even to places where Slavs were never present. For example, its frequency in Syrians at a frequency of 10%, close to that of Greece, in the Saami of Scandinavia at 10%, Turks at 6.6% and in Albanians in 9.8%. It is even found in the Dutch, at a frequency of 3.7%, a population that has been largely unaffected by any Slavonic incursion. Given that Greece is closer to the area where R1a probably originated, it is very likely that R1a lineages would have been part of early population elements of the Balkans.

Thus, we know that at least a part of 11.8% of R1a in Greeks is of pre-Slavic origin. We also know that the ancient Slavs had frequencies of it in excess of 50%. It's hard to quantify the exact percentages, but I will give an educated guess, that 5% of R1a lineages in Greece are of Slavic origin, while the ancient Slavs had it in frequency of 75%. The picture is not much different if we change these numbers, but they will do for now. As a result, the Slavonic influence in Greece turns out to be about 7%, an almost exact match for the figure given by Vasiliev in his History of the Byzantine Empire based on demographic considerations.

This figure might turn out to be less, or slightly more. Better resolution using markers distinguishing R1a chromosomes might provide us with additional information. But, the conclusion seems unavoidable, that the contribution of Slavs to the Greek gene pool (if any) is very limited, certainly not enough to extinguish the noble Hellenic nation as Fallmereyer had proposed.


It seems that a certain cystic fibrosis mutation is of Slavic origin (in other words, the original population who became the Slavs came up with this gene). The intersting thing is that Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians don't carry the gene. What does this mean? It might mean that the gene is not really the Slavic gene. Or, as the authors of the report below say, southern Slavs lost the gene when they mixed with other populations. I'm not saying they're right in making that assumption. But who knows?

"Our results indicate that this mutation is particularly common in Czech, Russian, Belorussian, Austrian, German, Polish, Ukrainian, Slovenian, and Slovak patients. It is the second most common CF mutation to be identified in Central and Eastern European CF patients. By contrast, it was only sporadically detected in Western Europe and was absent in Bulgarian, Croatian, Romanian and Serbian CF patients. It was not found in diverse other populations of non-Slavic origin. The geographic distribution of the mutation is similar to the spread of Slavic populations during the first millenium."

[HellenicDream]

The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.

A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.

A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks.

A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 [5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent [6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid).

A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.

The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.

P*(xR1a) R1a DE G2 I-M170 J2(DYS413≤ 18) J2*(xDYS413≤ 18) J*(xJ2) A Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)
12.8 9.8 20.2 6.6 14.8 20.2 4.9 2.7 0.3 7.7


A newer study by Semino et al. [10] has studied two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster α within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.

Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 925 Greek males were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, and one haplogroup A chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.4% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). Additionally, Y chromosome haplogroup R1a which is very frequent in Slavic populations (>50%) is found in only around 9.8% of Greeks, and is also found at comparable frequencies further East (10.8% in Iraq; Al-Zahery et al. [12]) indicating that its presence in Greece need not be associated with medieval intrusions by Slavic speakers. The emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.

Future studies with larger samples and more detailed founder analyses will allow us to obtain a better pictures of Y-chromosome variation in Greece, Europe and the world at large. At present, it appears that modern Europeans share many of the haplogroups, while there is also geographic structure in the distribution. With the exception of the Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input(a).

[1] Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity. Am J Hum Genet 67:1526-1543
[2] Helgason et al. (2000) Ancestry of Icelandic Y Chromosomes. Am J Hum Genet 67:697-717
[3] Malaspina et al. (2000) Patterns of male-specific inter-population divergence in Europe, West Asia and North Africa. Ann Hum Genet 64:395-412
[4] Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective
[5] Zerjal et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466-482
[6] Qamar et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Am J Hum Genet 70:1107-1124
[7] Zerjal et al. (1997) Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet 60:11741183
[8] Weale et al. (2001) Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure within a single ethno-national group. Hum Genet 109: 659-674
[9] Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395
[10] Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
[11] Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
[12] Al-Zahery et al. (2003) Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations Mol Phyl Evol 28:458-472

[HellenicDream]

J. Lawrence Angel sorted Greek skeletal tendencies into six arbitrary morphological types, including several sub-varieties. These were not “races,” but rather [1]:

“Types are entirely aribitrary creations from sorting of individuals. Genetically determined traits will recombine and re-form in each new generation largely at random so that types cannot express these new individualities adequately, only schematically. At best they give a preliminary overview of change.”

Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages. Thus, he emphasized the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically [2]:

“Racial continuity in Greece is striking.”


Angel, by an examination of ancient Greek burials expressly rejected the hypothesis that a genetically distinct isolated caste was responsible for Hellenic achievement [3]:

“Both evidence and speculation contradict Nilsson's hypothesis that Graeco-Roman decline resulted from production of vacillating individuals by unlimited bastardizing and from elimination of a racially pure upper class by lowered birthrate, after this capable group inbred during the Geometric period had created Classic Greek culture!”

Morphological Types
To illustrate the six morphological types of Ancient Greeks, we reproduce in the following Angel's descriptions of the types, as well as pictures of modern Greeks chosen by Angel to illustrate the appearance of these types on the living. His pictures illustrate the varieties that we would expect to find among the creators of Ancient Greek civilization. The descriptions and pictures in the following are reproduced from [4].

Basic Whites (Type A)
Basic Whites (Type A: Plate XL, u-y) are sturdy. They have large and long heads with somewhat low and receding bony foreheads, massive browridges, and a generally angular and ill-filled appearance emphasized in slight midline gabling of parietals and lamboid flattening just above the projecting occiput. Their almost trapezoid faces lack height, and show rectangular orbits, short, straight, coarse noses, angular profile, and strong chin and teeth. They were probably above medium stature, strong, dark-brown haired, and swarthy. They show noteworthy similarity to Chalcolithic Palestinians, Siculans, Chalcolithic Sardinians, and Neolithic type British, and are obviously also comparable to Atlanto-Mediterraneans in Mesopotamia. They are less homogeneous as a group than the other types, covering the range from a linear and high-skulled “Megalithic” variant with high, thin-nosed hatchet-face (A1 and A2: Cephallenian and Athenian in Plate XL, v, w), to a low-headed and squat-faced extreme with wide nose and low orbits (A4: S.C. Macedonian in Plate XL, u), with a central group (A3 and A5: Corinthian of Argive parentage and Lemnian in Plate XL, x and y) connecting these divergent tendencies.



Classic Mediterraneans (Type B)
Classic Mediterraneans (Type B: Mytilenean, W. Cretan, and Corinthian of Argive parentage in Plate XL, r, s, and t) are light-boned, almost fragile. They have small, barely dolichocrane heads, pentagonoid in outline in both vertical and occipital views, contracted neck muscle area, and low almost vertical rounded foreheads. Their slender, fine-featured faces have square orbits, thin noses smooth and low in the nasion region, and a triangular taper down to pinched jaws with shallow and pointed chin, weak prognathism, and an overbite linked with subnormal degree of teeth wear. They were probably just below medium stature, gracile, slender-necked, brunet, with black or dark hair. They are virtually identical with ancient Libyans and modern Sicilians, and similar to Upper Egyptians of prehistoric and Early Dynastic dates, and to modern Spanish. Type B is the most homogeneous one, with only slight tendencies in longer-headed, linear-faced and smaller, more squat-faced directions.



Throughout the Mediterranean region Type B occurs in various proportions with the Basic White type, and a composite made of Types A and B in equal proportions is very close to Minoan Cretans and somewhat resembles Lower Egyptians of XXVI to XXX Dynasties and Iron Age South Palestinians.

Nordic-Iranians (Type D)
Nordic-Iranians (Type D: Plate XL, m-q) have long and high heads with peculiarly deep occiputs, smooth ovoid-ellipsoid contour, sharply-cut muscle impressions, strong browridges, and tilted and capacious foreheads. Marked facial height and narrowness of cheeks compared to wide forehead and jowls makes a rectangular, horse-faced impression. Large but slightly retreating cheekbones enclose drooping orbits, and big, salient, and aquiline noses, long-arched palates, muscular jaws wide at the angles, and cleft chins lacking prominence all add to the same effect. Nordic-Iranians were tall and muscular, strong-necked, and probably included tawny-haired blue- or green-eyed blonds as well as brunets. Approximate identity, and noteworthy resemblances to North Iranian Bronze Age Proto-Nordics, to Anglo-Saxons, and to medieval Irish Monks show the divided eastern and northern relations of this Greek type. And although Type D has low variability, it includes four slightly different tendencies: a cylindrical-skulled, slab-faced Iron-Age Nordic one (D1: Chalcidian and E. Thracian, in Plate XL, n and o), a high-skulled, ellipsoid, “Corded” tendency (D2: Chalcidian in Plate XL, p slightly “dinaricised”), a long byrsoid, deep-skulled, huge-nosed, convex-profiled Iranian trend (D4: Athenian of Arcadian parentage, in Plate XL, m), and a small-faced Iranian-Mediterranean divergence approaching Coon's Cappadocian and Danubian types (D3: Athenian in Plate XL, q).



Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Type F)
Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Type F: Chalcidian, Corinthian, and E. Thessalian in Plate XL, j, k, and l) are the least Alpine of two intermediate, hybrid, Alpinoid forms. Their short (high mesocrane) and relatively high byrsoid heads have pinched and flatly sloping foreheads and non-projecting occiputs. They have big and drooping, hound-like, faces with an elongated hexagonal outline, stemming from striking (though variable) flare of the cheek region. Face height is emphasized in their long and thin noses pulled down almost parallel with their foreheads, in high palates, and in long deep jaws. Dinaric-Mediterraneans are medium tall, long-necked, and presumably mainly brunet. They resemble both dinaricised Mediterraneans from Lower Egypt in the third and second millennia BC and dinaricised Alpines including inhabitants of the Roman Troad, modern Greeks from Anatolia and European Turkey, Serbs and Croats, and Slovenes. Type F is homogeneous but shows divergences toward linearity on the one hand and toward true brachycrane Dinaric makeup on the other.



Mixed Alpines (Type E)
Mixed-Alpines (Type E: Plate XL, f-h) are closer to Alpines morphologically than in their proportions. Their large mesocrane heads are well-filled, with peculiarly large and wide foreheads with little slope and smooth parietals with a long flat plane in the obellion-lambda region. The massive foreheads dwarf their low faces which have an inverted trapezoid outline and a retreating profile, high-rooted but insignificant noses, and shallow and relatively delicate jaws despite respectable size. They were not especially short but probably heavy-bodied, probably with some mixed blonds among a brunet majority. Their approximations to Etrusco-Roman Tarquinians and Merovingian Franks are both good, and they resemble adequately Bessarabian Scythians, Carniola Illyrians, Basques and Teneriffe Guanche. This parallelism stresses their hybrid origin. Type E is homogeneous, but with some inner divergences including Nordic Alpine (E2: W. Macedonian and E. Arcadian in Plate XL, g and h) as opposed to Mediterranean-Alpine (E1, E3: N.W. Macedonian in Plate XL, f) tendencies.



Alpines (Type C)
Alpines (Type C: Plate XL, a-e, and i) have shortened and laterally bulging heads, with weakly curved occiputs equipped with strong torus for neck muscles, broad and full foreheads (narrow relative to bulging parietals) and a short ovoid to sphenoid or spheroid outline in norma verticalis. Their heads as a whole range from “square” to globular. The Alpine face is low and orthognathous with square to hexagonal outline rounded at the angles. Non-retreating cheekbones, and dominantly short, low-rooted, non-salient and concave nose combine to give the face a certain flatness, emphasized further by alveolar retraction with short and low palate, and by a prominent chin linked with an edge bite and much worn and somewhat poor teeth. Alpines were notably short and probably stocky, and dominantly brunet. They resemble significantly both recent Carinthian villagers and medieval citizens of Hythe in Kent, with good approximations to Foothill Bavarians and to Bronze Age Eastern Cypriotes. This suggestion of divided resemblance is confirmed fully by Type C's slightly elevated variability. And various divergent tendencies are appreciable: C1, C2, and C3 (Maniote, E. Thracian, and Athenian in Plate XL, a, b, and c) tend respectively toward the globular Central European Alpine, its paedomorphic extreme, and a rugged slab-faced Borreby-like type; an Eastern Alpine trend (C4: Ithacan and Athenian in Plate XL, d and e) toward a high, sphenoid vault with flat occiput and high-nosed, square-jowled face, and a squate Eastern Alpine tendency (C5: S.E. Messenian in Plate XL, i) toward sphenoid-byrsoid and broad-based vault with short face and puffy nose both have obvious Near Eastern rather than European appearances.



References
Angel, J. Lawrence, in Mylonas, George E., 1972-1973, Ο ταφικός κύκλος V των Μυκηνών, Εθνική Αρχαιολογική Εταιρεία, Athens
Angel, J. Lawrence, 1944, A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types, American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Angel, J. Lawrence, 1946, Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth, American Anthropologist
Angel J. Lawrence, 1945, Skeletal Material from Attica, Hesperia

[HellenicDream]

Originally Posted by Duchemin

Arthur Kemp love the sickle cell, it's convenient for him. But it's not a reliable marker.

Arthur Kemp's MOTT is clearly pro Nord in his writings. He uses a lot of material that is outdated specifically when he attacks S. European races.