German and Polish Haplotype comparison

[Gil]

Since there seems to be some discussion around about the genetic differences and similarities between Germans and Poles I've used YHRD ( Chromosome Haplotype Reference Database) and cross compared the two populations. The plot shows the 20 most frequent haplotypes of population 1 with its frequencies in population 2, providing a general view of haplotype (and hence genetic) similarities/differences and overall comparison. Browse the pdf and take your own conclusions:

Here

Cheers


Note: I've no intention of keeping alive any type of flame war, it just seems to be a topic of interest for many members and i'm just providing material for civil discussion.

[Zyklop]

doesn´t work...
Can you please copy and paste?

[Gil]

Sorry, seems the .pdf isn't working right.



As I said above the comparison is between two populations and the plot shows the 20 most frequent haplotypes of population 1 with its frequencies in population 2.

[Polak]

Type in some of the Polish modal haplotypes and watch the dots light up in Eastern Germany.

[Polak]

Here are some comparisons between Western Norway, Rostock, and Warsaw.

All regions are high in R1a1 (30% or over), but the R1a1 in Western Norway is mostly of the Central Asian type, while in Poland it is of the Balto-Slavic type.

We don't yet know what type of R1a1 predominates in Eastern Germany, but from these charts, it would seem it's the Balto-Slavic type...

[Polak]

Quite possibly the two closest matches between Germany and Poland in the YHRD databse (though I could be wrong there)....Berlin and Szczecin. The chart indicates markers in Berlin that are not found in Szczecin. These are obviously western European haplotypes not found in the population of the Polish city, which largely consists of migrants from former eastern Poland (now Lithuania and Belorussia). The similarities between the two populations must be a result of Balto-Slavic markers.

[Polak]

Now some maps, showing the distribution of a couple of types of R1a1 common in Slavic countries.

The first one is clearly a Balto-Slavic marker, probably confined to the southern Baltic shore till fairly late. The second a more spread out R1a1 type, and quite possibly suggestive of an Indo-European expansion before the formation of the Slavs.

[Polak]

Just did some more work on this. I analysed the most common 20 haplotypes in Lublin, Poland. I chose this city because it's closest to the supposed Slavic cradle. R1a1 makes up 62% of the haplotypes there, and the top 20 lineages are also R1a1. I assume this must be one of the most Slavic populations in Europe.

From the data I gathered, it seems that there's a very strong link between Lublin and Germany. The most common haplotypes found in this eastern Polish sample are also common in eastern Germany. Then there's a secondary link between the Polish sample, and Germanic samples in general, especially north Germanic, but to a lesser degree also south Germanic.

The first link can be attributed to a Slavic expansion, both ancient and more modern. I have no doubt about that. The second link has something to do with the expansion of more ancient R1a1 carriers, possibly the proto-Indo-Europeans?

I can't attribute these links to Germanic expansions east, because typically Germanic markers, apart from R1a1, are extremely rare in Lublin.

In another thread on this forum, you'll see that scientists apparently found large differences between the Polish and German paternal lineages. But their findings do not undermine the notion that many eastern Germans are of Slavic descent. What they do is show us is that the flow of western European lineages into formerly Slavic lands has been massive.

It's curious that when you compare Polish and east/north German samples as graphs on the YHRD website, you'll get some pretty good matches indeed. I've attached here a comparison between Lublin and Berlin.

Now, here are some details about the 20 most common haplotypes found in Lublin...


16 13 29 25 10 11 13 11 14
Widespread R1a lineage, but mostly found in Slavic and Germanic countries.

17 13 30 25 10 11 13 10 14
Again R1a1, but centered even more in Slavic and Germanic countries.

16 13 30 25 11 11 13 11 14
A very widespread R1a1. Seen mostly in Slavic and Germanic countries, but also in southern Balkans, south Asia, the Caucasus, and the middle east.

17 13 29 25 10 11 13 11 14
R1a1 found only in Poland and eastern Germany, apart from a match each in Hungary and Estonia.

16 13 29 25 10 11 13 10 14
Another R1a1, with matches mostly in Poland and eastern Germany.

15 13 30 25 10 11 13 11 14
R1a1 found mostly in Germanic and Slavic populations, but also with some matches in south Asia.

17 13 29 25 10 11 13 10 14
R1a1 almost exclusively found in north Slavic populations and eastern Germany.

16 13 30 25 10 11 13 11 14
A very widespread R1a1, but mostly found in Slavic and Germanic populations. A good number of south Asian matches too.

17 14 31 24 11 11 13 11 14
Matches in southern Poland, and one in Latvia.

17 13 31 25 11 11 13 11 14
R1a1 mostly found in Poland and Germany.

17 13 31 25 10 11 13 11 15
R1a1 lineage found only in this sample.

17 13 30 25 10 11 13 10 15
R1a1 found in Poland, Ukraine, Russia and Germany.

16 13 31 25 11 11 13 10 14
R1a1 with matches in eastern Poland and one in eastern Germany.

16 13 31 24 11 11 13 14 15
R1a1 common in Poland, Germany, and the Balkans. Several matches in Turkic populations.

16 13 30 25 11 11 13 11 15
Widespread R1a1, with most matches in Poland and Germany. Also several matches in south Asia.

16 13 30 24 10 11 13 11 14
R1a1 mostly found in Slavic and Germanic groups. Also several matches in south Asia.

15 13 30 25 11 11 13 14 15
R1a1 found only in Lublin.

15 13 29 25 10 11 13 11 14
Very widespread R1a1 found largely in Slavic and Germanic populations.

17 14 32 25 10 11 14 11 14
R1a1 lineage found only in Lublin.