Strong differentiation between Germans and Poles

[Gil]

Note: before making assumptions or trying to bash me please read what follows as it is: a study

A new study on human Y chromosomes has found a strong differentiation between German and Polish Y-chromosomes. The differentiation occurs precisely at the border between the two countries, with all German and all Polish populations clustering together.

The explanation for this phenomenon is that resettlements after WWII homogenized the two nations on an ethnic basis. Moreover, a necessary assumption is that there was little male admixture between the two peoples when they co-existed geographically.

The differentiation is evident based on analyses both of Y-STR haplotypes and Y-chromosomal haplogroups. The main contributors to the differentiation are the higher frequency of R1a1 in Poland and correspondingly higher frequency of R1*(xR1a1) in Germany, and the presence of different haplotype clusters for haplogroup I in the two countries. The correspondence analysis between haplogroups and populations is particularly interesting:



We see that Poles are differentiated by Germans on the basis of R1a1 and N3 (Finno-Ugrian admixture). The differentiation on the basis of I subgroups is not evident, because no downstream markers for this haplogroup were examined in this study.

Also of particular interest is that of the two Neolithic haplogroups, J2 is associated with Germans, whereas DE* is apparently not. So, this may hint at different patterns of arrival of the two haplogroups in this part of the world. This would agree with some recent results from Balkan Slavic populations, that typically found a higher-percentage of YAP (DE) lineages than J2 ones.

Human Genetics (advanced publication online)

Significant genetic differentiation between Poland and Germany follows present-day political borders, as revealed by Y-chromosome analysis

Manfred Kayser et al.

Abstract:
To test for human population substructure and to investigate human population history we have analysed Y-chromosome diversity using seven microsatellites (Y-STRs) and ten binary markers (Y-SNPs) in samples from eight regionally distributed populations from Poland (n=913) and 11 from Germany (n=1,215). Based on data from both Y-chromosome marker systems, which we found to be highly correlated (r=0.96), and using spatial analysis of the molecular variance (SAMOVA), we revealed statistically significant support for two groups of populations: (1) all Polish populations and (2) all German populations. By means of analysis of the molecular variance (AMOVA) we observed a large and statistically significant proportion of 14% (for Y-SNPs) and 15% (for Y-STRs) of the respective total genetic variation being explained between both countries. The same population differentiation was detected using Monmonierrsquos algorithm, with a resulting genetic border between Poland and Germany that closely resembles the course of the political border between both countries. The observed genetic differentiation was mainly, but not exclusively, due to the frequency distribution of two Y-SNP haplogroups and their associated Y-STR haplotypes: R1a1*, most frequent in Poland, and R1*(xR1a1), most frequent in Germany. We suggest here that the pronounced population differentiation between the two geographically neighbouring countries, Poland and Germany, is the consequence of very recent events in human population history, namely the forced human resettlement of many millions of Germans and Poles during and, especially, shortly after World War II. In addition, our findings have consequences for the forensic application of Y-chromosome markers, strongly supporting the implementation of population substructure into forensic Y chromosome databases, and also for genetic association studies.

Link

[Zyklop]

Now let´s have a look at this thread again:

A great many Eastern Germans are Slavs

[Zyklop]

Some quotes by an expert :

Originally Posted by Polak

Warm salutations, Slavic bretheren.

Originally Posted by Polak

Many Eastern Germans are of Slavic ancestry, ie. of the people who came from north of the Black Sea.

They were of many phenotypes, but their genetic legacy is unquestionable.

Originally Posted by Polak

It seems that many Germans are of the eastern European variety.

Originally Posted by Polak

But Germans like to play down the Slavic influence on them, which has been significant.

Originally Posted by Polak

Looking at latest reports, Germans carry about 30% of the same type of R1a1 as is found in Poland.

This is a Balto-Slavic gene....not German, not Indo-European, but Balto-Slavic...introduced into Germany by Slavs.

If 30% of Germans have Slavic MALE ancestors (I'm not even counting females here) then that DNA is still present in Germany, and could not have been diluted to any great extent.

So yeah, the Rurh (Germans of Polish descent) and East Germany (Polabian Slavc and Sorbs) are full of Slavs who think they're Germans.

Get it through your head that Germany is at least 1/3 Slavic...if not more...nothing you have shown us changes that, and even your outdated table doesn't prove much if all of Germany was tested (the Germanic north, Celtic south, and Slavic east).

Originally Posted by Polak

Btw, you continue to post outdated data, based on small samples. Is it possible for you to grasp the concept that East Germans are different from West Germans...and that Slavic markers mostly occur in the former.

Originally Posted by Polak

At least 1/3 of Germans are of Slavic origin (I'm not even counting those of Celtic or Baltic origin). The fact that they mixed with other Germans of Germanic and Celtic origin doesn't mean the Slavic genetic input has lessened...in fact, latest studies show it's as great as ever...largely due to the mass migration of Germans from East Prussia, East Pomerania and Silesia. Germany is now genetically as Slavic as ever, and it's Slavic in traditionally German areas now.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Does anyone have access to the whole study?

Personally, I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions (any conclusion) before large-scale Y-STR and Y-SNP analyses are carried out (even then it would be premature IMO). mtDNA analyses are, unfortunately, of little or no account. Besides, I don't see a contradiction between a "significant overlap" as posited by one study and a "strong differentiation between German and Polish Y-chromosomes". Both could imply a, say, 70:30 ratio.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Nadvojvoda
Personally, I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions ([i

any conclusion[/i]) before large-scale Y-STR and Y-SNP analyses are carried out

Nobel, hobel Wär halt schön, wenn Leute wie Polak eine ähnliche Haltung an den Tag legen würden.

Originally Posted by Polak

The sub-clades of R1a1 found in Poland and western Russia are also found in eastern Germany.

They are not found in any other Germanic populations.

What does that tell you? It tells me that the gene pool that makes up the Polish and Russian populations also pushes into Germany.

That means about 30% of Germans are our brothers. And this blood did not come from the German side to us, it came from us to the German side.

Call it what you like, but Germans are carrying plenty of our lineages.

Originally Posted by Polak

Latest research has found 30% of R1a1 in the German population. And the sub-clades are the same as those in Slavic nations (Poland in particular).

Fact is that there exists R1a in "East"-Germany which is different to that in Poland. I wouldn´t be surprized if this xR1a1 also is responsible for the high amount of R1a in Norway.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Fact is that there exists R1a in "East"-Germany which is different to that in Poland. I wouldn´t be surprized if this xR1a1 also is responsible for the high amount of R1a in Norway.

Well, the R1*(xR1a1) in question here could in fact be R1b, frequent in Western Europe. That's why I'm keen on laying my hands on the study.

Norwegian R1a is often described as Central Asian and is different from the Slavic clades.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski

Well, the R1*(xR1a1) in question here could in fact be R1b, frequent in Western Europe. That's why I'm keen on laying my hands on the study.

Wouldn´t this set Germans and Poles even more apart in regards to paternal ancestry?

Norwegian R1a is often described as Central Asian and is different from the Slavic clades.

Well, this study already shows a correlation between East-Germany and Norway. Doesn´t support Slavic R1a claims about Germany either, if you ask me.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Wouldn´t this set Germans and Poles even more apart in regards to paternal ancestry?

Both haplogroups are present in both countries. We'd need figures for each country or, better yet, towns and regions. I hope they're all mapped in this study.

Well, this study already shows a correlation between East-Germany and Norway. Doesn´t support Slavic R1a claims about Germany either, if you ask me.

Yeah, that's exactly the study that popped into my mind. It states that there's a lot of overlap between East Germany and Poland but doesn't specify what brought the authors to this conclusion. Too bad. Besides, they would've had to analyse Y-SNP's, which they didn't (Y-STR's change to rapidly). We laready have some other studies (Rosser et al. 2001), but the sample size for Germans was too small, and it wasn't broken down into regions.

[Gil]

Originally Posted by Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski

Personally, I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions (any conclusion) before large-scale Y-STR and Y-SNP analyses are carried out (even then it would be premature IMO). mtDNA analyses are, unfortunately, of little or no account.

And why do you say that? Scientists around the globe use mtDNA for migration studies and it has been completely mapped. What is you basis for making that statement?

I quote:

Nucleotide sequencing of the human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region has been validated for the genetic characterization of forensic specimens (for references, see Budowle et al. 1999). Mitochondrial DNA analysis is especially useful for the analysis of teeth, bones, and hair, as well as highly degraded tissues that do not lend themselves to successful nuclear DNA analysis.

In contrast to nuclear DNA, mtDNA follows maternal clonal inheritance patterns without recombination. Therefore, with few exceptions (i.e., heteroplasmy), mtDNA types are faithfully inherited from one generation to the next through the maternal line. These characteristics facilitate collection of reference material for forensic comparison, even in cases where generations are skipped. For forensic purposes, the weight of a mtDNA match between two evidentiary items is determined by counting the number of times the profile occurs in one or more datasets of unrelated individuals. Given the level of diversity that has been observed in mtDNA, the estimate of rarity by counting mtDNA types is highly dependent on the size of the reference database and will often be overestimated

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Manji

And why do you say that? Scientists around the globe use mtDNA for migration studies and it has been completely mapped. What is you basis for making that statement?

mtDNA is not distinguishable enough regarding this topic.

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

mtDNA is not distinguishable enough regarding this topic.

Exactly. They're too similar for tangible conclusions IIRC. MtDNA would be conducive to this issue for exactly the same reasons Manji named, which is why I said "unfortunately" in my previous post.

[Zyklop]

Latest (?) mtDNA map:

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

Originally Posted by Zyklop

Latest (?) mtDNA map:

Seems to coincide with what I was able to observe so far (Europe is very homogenous in terms of mtDNA).

What's your source?

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski

What's your source?

Skadi...

[Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski]

I meant the title of the study.

[Zyklop]

Originally Posted by Nadvojvoda Janez Kranjski

I meant the title of the study.

Lost in the depths of +Forum Skadi+