English and Welsh are races apart

[Menydh]

English and Welsh are races apart

BBC News
June 30, 2002

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons. The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.
The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."


[source]

[Gil]

No surprise when one looks at some famous welsh:

Ioan Gruffudd:



Catherine Zeta Jones



Christian Bale:



Richard Burton:




And much much more.

Source: http://www.famouswelsh.com/

[Zyklop]

Catherine Zeta Jones

Early 1990s


2000s


More at:
http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/archives/001047.html

[Menydh]

DISCLAIMER: This site is merely the opinion of the author.

http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/

[Strengthandhonour]

I am not very sure about this, but I think I heard the word "Welsh" in old anglo-saxon language means "Foreigner". Apparently, the anglo-saxons where different than most Germanic tribes, they where possesive and where looking for land instead of land for just living without killing. The anglo-saxons went to Britain and eliminated so many that they eventually believed that they where the true natives of that land and most of the Britons went to France or Wales, since they weren't anglo-saxon looking they where called "Welsh"

[Menydh]

Wales derives from an old Anglo-Saxon word, weallas, which means foreigners. That doesn't have to imply something like "foreigners to the land", but "foreigners to the Anglo-Saxons". The inhabitants of the area, the Pryddyn, named the country Cymru, which I've heard that it means brothers or companions. The same etymological origin is shared by Cumbria. Another theory is that the name could have been taken from the Cimri.

The English name for Kernow, Cornwall, is a composition of the Brythonic name + the old Anglo-Saxon weallas.

As for the Anglo-Saxons ultimately believing that they were the true inhabitants, you only have to look at the legends of Arthur. For centuries they have been literally selling them as part of their heritage, while the truth is that Arthur was a Pryddyn (or a Britano-Roman) who fought the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

But the English are good at that, inventing deceptive stories and then making profit with them. Reminds me of other people..

[Gil]

Zyklop: well....my point remains the same, the welsh of non anglo-saxon origin (hence, "true" welsh) are a blend of Gracil Mediterranean or West Med with perhaps an atlantid influence.

[Zyklop]

In poetic German "welsch" is synonymous with Romanic.

[Gil]

There was a study (lost the link though) on the different types present in the British Isles and the Welsh and Cornish were the most "dark" types present. Also most archeologists/anthropologists believe that prior to the anglo-saxon invasions and the viking raids that the "iberian" type was the dominant in the whole region (Iberian type being equal to West Mediterranean).

[daspit]

The study you cite from the BBC is three years old. Do you have a link to the study so that we can read it? Do you know if any additional studies have been done in the last three years that could confirm or challenge this premise?

I know that Britons and Anglo-Saxons have different markers, but my reading of the most recent scientific literature suggests that the marker for Britons (R1b) is found not only in Wales and Ireland but also in England itself.

[etoile noir]

granted, the post is rather dated, however for a welsh person to wander into england, all one has to do is walk over Hereford and vice versa!

i have relatives in hereford and it's not the first time we "walked over" to wales.
the boundaries in that area are not very clearly defined, one minute you're in england, next you're in wales.

and please, to the welsh here, do not misconstrue this post as my saying "welsh and english are one and the same". i know it's not. i'm just trying to point out the fact that the finding of R1b in england, wales and ireland is easily explained.

[Awar]

R1b is the most widespread haplogroup.

[Gil]

The evidences point in the direction that Etoile said. I've gone and found some stuff you might be interested, and made a thread about haplogroup R1b.

Cheers

[Exeter]

I shall give you a short description of the anthropology (mainly based on Fleure et al. 1958, but also his older works) of Wales. By studying the anthropology of Wales one can understand a lot about the pre-Germanic elements of Britain.

I'm glad that I had saved what I wrote in Word.


The Plynlimon country harbours a relatively high proportion of extremely narrowheaded brunets with prominent brows, strongly marked temporal bones which make the cheek-bones stand out in contrast, a rather large prominent mouth and, in a few cases, a rather swarthy skin. This type is more ancient than the one you think of though. These men are also almost always of short stature. These are to be distinguished from the brunet longheads of slighter bone structure, with contours of head and face far milder, brow ridges little marked, facial contour fairly smooth and features regular. They form a large part of the population of Wales. There are short-headed brunet men in Wales too. These are found in Bala Cleft, a region that extends from Corwen to Barmouth and Towyn.

The maritime regions, especially Gower, and to a lesser extent Anglesey, the LLyn peninsula and the north coast of Caernarvonshire, have a higher proportion of blond people. In Gower blond colouring is far commoner that in any other area of Wales, large head measurements are characteristic and tallness is more general than elsewhere and is most marked among men of blond colouring.

The Welsh population probably included elements descended from very ancient groups which came into Britain over the land-bridge which then existed with continental Europe. These drifts brought genes of very early British ancestry which have survived especially in the mountains and moorlands. These regions have naturally attracted few immigrants. Remote and difficult regions tend to preserve relic populations and notable elements with very long narrow heads are known from areas such as the Dordogne, the province of Tras os Montes in north Portugal and from Sardinia. The very long narrow head is also found among jungle peoples in South India, the Australian aborigines, the Korana people of South Africa and other relic populations in remote areas at the ends of lines of human migration and drift. The population of Britian in Palaeolithic times was probably very small (it would take too much space to write about them here). Some of them, as elsewhere in Europe, had very low cranial indices, long heads with a median ridge, marked temporal hollows and strong brows. Similar characteristics occur among the men of the Plynlimon area. The type could be what some anthropologists called Eurafrican (Vinnie Jones?).

Welsh folkore contains many traditions of fair people from the lowlands meeting the small, dark people of the uplands (“the fairy folk”), who sometimes had a fear of iron. These traditions are probably related to the incoming of Iron Age peoples to the lower lands. The same areas also suffered the incursions of the Vikings who ravaged Anglesey and Llyn and raided and settled parts of the shorelands of the Bristol channel, from south Pembrokeshire to Monmouthshire. The comparatively high frequency of blond colouring and tall stature, and especially of these characteristics in association with long and medium heads, in these maritime projections, indicates a relationship with immigrants who used the Atlantic route. Fleure et al. (1958) believed that the blond men of lighter build and finer features are to be associated with migrations of Celtic-speaking peoples and those of more robust form with Norse invasions.

[Exeter]

H. J Fleure and M. Davies gave a few examples, as that gives a better idea than mere description of types. According to the authors Robert Burns seems to illustrate some of the characters of the dark longheads, who show Neolithic inheritance. Charles Darwin, painted before he grew long beard, seems to have had some characteristics of the Beaker people, though these features may have been carried to his family by later immigrants. Lord Ribblesdale, in J. S. Sargent’s portrait was given as an example of the characteristic tall, thin fair type with regular and fine features (Coon’s Keltic Nordic?).

Lord Ribblesdale (J. S Sargent, hand-painted reproduction):
http://www.fine-art-reproductions.co...bblesdale1.jpg

[Renwein]

Originally Posted by daspit

The study you cite from the BBC is three years old. Do you have a link to the study so that we can read it?

yes (1st attachment)

Do you know if any additional studies have been done in the last three years that could confirm or challenge this premise?

yes (2nd attachment)