Where did European Men Come From?

[Waarnemer]

Where did European Men Come From?

Some notes on the paper (last update Apr 22):

• p. 67: points (1) and (2) both refer to a north-south gradient of haplogroup R1b in the Balkans; one of them probably should refer to a different haplogroup (R1a?).
• Table 12 gives the frequency of haplogroups in Macedonians, identified in Maps 64-65 by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (fYROM). However, the ultimate source of the data is Semino et al. "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective", SCIENCE VOL 290 10 NOVEMBER 2000 where the sample is described as "20 Macedonians from northern Greece". Thus, the identification of the sample as Slavic and representing the fYROM is incorrect.
  
  A source of data from the fYROM is: Bosch et al. "Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns", Ann Hum Genet. 2006 Jul;70(Pt 4):459-87.

Kalevi Wiik, "Where did European Men Come From?", Journal of Genetic Genealogy 4:35-85.

Population Old Europeans Early Farmers Other

R1b R1a I N3 Total E J G Total Total
1 Andalusian 65.5 3.4 68.9 10.3 13.3 23.6 7.5

2 Basque-Sp 88.9 6.6 95.5 2.2 2.2 4.4 0

3 Basque-Fr 86.4 9.1 95.5 4.5 4.5 0

4 Catalan 79.2 4.2 83.4 4.2 4.2 8.3 16.7 0

5 French 52.2 17.4 69.6 8.7 17.3 26.0 4.4

6 Dutch 70.4 3.7 22.2 95.9 3.7 3.7 0.4

(for you Mynydd, seems the Dutch are western after all )

7 German 50.2 6.2 37.5 93.7 6.2 6.2 0

8 Czech + Slov 35.6 26.7 15.6 2.2 77.9 2.2 8.9 4.4 15.5 6.6

9 Italian 62.0 4.0 8.0 70.4 2.2 14.0 10.0 26.2 3.4

10 Calabrian 32.4 32.4 16.4 32.4 8.0 56.6 11.0

11 Sardinian 22.1 37.7 59.8 10.4 10.4 14.2 35.0 5.2

12 Croatian 10.3 29.3 44.8 84.4 6.9 5.2 1.7 13.8 1.8

13 Albanian 17.6 9.8 19.6 47.0 23.6 27.5 2.0 53.1 0

14 Greek 27.6 11.8 7.9 47.3 23.7 22.3 2.6 48.6 4.1

15 Macedonian 10.0 35.0 20.0 65.0 15.2 20.0 35.0 0

16 Polish 16.4 56.4 23.6 96.4 3.6 3.6 0

17 Hungarian 13.3 60.0 11.1 74.4 8.9 2.2 2.2 13.3 2.3

18 Ukrainian 2.0 54.0 18.0 6.0 74.0 4.0 6.0 4.0 14.0 12.0

19 Georgian 14.3 7.9 22.2 36.5 30.1 66.6 11.2

20 Turkish 6.6 6.6 3.3 3.3 19.8 13.3 43.3 6.6 63.2 17.0

21 Lebanese 6.4 9.4 3.2 19.3 25.8 35.1 3.2 64.1 16.6

22 Syrian 15.0 10.0 5.0 30.0 10.0 45.0 55.0 15.0

23 Saami 8.3 8.3 41.7 41.7 100 0 0

24 Udmurt 11.6 37.2 7.0 30.2 86.0 4.7 4.7 5.4 8.6

25 Mari 13.0 4.3 69.5 86.8 6.5 6.5 6.7

http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf

[Skeptikos Examiner]

I have not much trust in those genetic tests, they appear to be still far from a real science yet and usually show to a high extent what those people paying for those studies want them to show. Depending on the number of markers used and the genes focused on they leave far to much room for subjective influence.

Also many population have experienced constant change since those ancient times and most do not even come close to be representative for those people that lived there some thousand years ago.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

Also many population have experienced constant change since those ancient times and most do not even come close to be representative for those people that lived there some thousand years ago.

And so have genetic markers. But we still can trace them back (now talking about haplogroups and haplotypes), detect their 'age', and what markers today originated from these ancient ones.

Genetics is a new science, full of possibilities and answers yet to be discovered and given to mankind. I'd give it a chance. I've got the feeling that your view on our roots and this whole issue is to romantic. The 'Arayn vs. Jew' style. Maybe I have a wrong impression though, doun't know

[BeornWulfWer]

My apologies for asking, but the link to the PDF is not working for me. Could you possibly give out a new link or fix the existing one?

Beter still, can you tell me what the ratios were for the English/British and Irish?

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Waarnemer

(for you Mynydd, seems the Dutch are western after all )

That was before turning Germanics.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

That was before turning Germanics.

According to Theo Venneman's Vasconic hypothesis. Wich I don't buy, even if the idea is thrilling enough.

[Skeptikos Examiner]

Originally Posted by Vincent

Genetics is a new science, full of possibilities and answers yet to be discovered and given to mankind. I'd give it a chance.

I agree, I'm all for discovering new horizons, I just wanted to point out that genetics are far from an accurate science yet and that those results should not be taken as final truths since there is still so much we do not know and and thus a lot room for possible errors to hide

[Ariets]

Hoh' it's much easier to post picture that copy+paste text

Originally Posted by Skeptikos Examiner

I have not much trust in those genetic tests, they appear to be still far from a real science yet and usually show to a high extent what those people paying for those studies want them to show. Depending on the number of markers used and the genes focused on they leave far to much room for subjective influence.

Also many population have experienced constant change since those ancient times and most do not even come close to be representative for those people that lived there some thousand years ago.

Because of?

[Carnyx]

Do we know of those Early farmers type? Mediterranean?

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Do we know of those Early farmers type? Mediterranean?

What do you mean?

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Ariets

What do you mean?

Do we know what did they [Neolithic farmers] look like? Their phenotype.

[Ariets]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Do we know what did they [Neolithic farmers] look like? Their phenotype.

I guess like darkie Middle Easterns

[Carnyx]

Originally Posted by Ariets

I guess like darkie Middle Easterns

Erh, I was asking for something a little more documented, not one personal opinion. I'll have to conclude that no one knows for sure.

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Carnyx

Do we know what did they [Neolithic farmers] look like? Their phenotype.

We know what they look like. They were Eastern Mediterraneans, similar as the particular Mediterranean type that we find in Greece and Bulgaria.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Savorgnan

We know what they look like. They were Eastern Mediterraneans, similar as the particular Mediterranean type that we find in Greece and Bulgaria.

Pontids?

[Savorgnan]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Pontids?

No. Shorter, thinner Mediterraneans. Like insular and coastal Greeks.