Illyrians are the ancestors of the Albanians?

[Monolith]

Do you think that today's Albanians are descendants of the ancient Illyrians?
I would guess that the dominant Illyrian haplotype was EU7-I1b, because the M170 was present in the Europe since Paleolithic times.
It's just my opinion, but if this was the case, then most of the Illyrian genetic heritage in Albanians vanished through the history.

On this site you can find info about Albanian markers and compare it with those of nearby nations:
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf

[Crvena zvezda]

I don't believe they do. It's just a claim that nationalist Albanians made and nearly all Albnaians believe. albanians appeared in the balkans long after Illyrians dissapeared and most sources say there illyrian origin is alledged and not actual.

[Sergius]

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any other theories?

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any other theories?

I don't know any other theories about their history and ethnogenesis, but I also do not believe that they are Illyrians (though they might have some Illyrian blood). The same thing genetic has proven. It says that they are a common Balkan people, related in some way to neighboring folks, nothing special. But Illyrians (or even worse, like claims that they are the only Illyrians left)? No!

[Crvena zvezda]

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any other theories?

I've read that they're Caucausian origin and that they're most closely related to Chechens and Azeri's.

[Sergius]

Can you back that up with some data?
The Albanian language is completely unrelated to both Azeri and Chechen, who in turn are unrelated as well.

And where did Hrvoje go?

[Levin]

Illyrians were a people - if people at all* - that lived in the area almost 2,000 years ago, annihilated by Romans, assimilated by Slavs and Greeks and mixed out with various peoples that strolled the area.

(*When I say 'if people at all', it might be that Illyrians weren't one people, but only the term for all inhabitants of Illyricum that could be groups of different tribes or even different peoples. Similar terminology can be seen with Austrian Empire that used the name to describe all South Slavs of what is today called as 'Western Balkans')

In that sense, if we are to describe origin of modern nations by obscure terms such as 'blood' (or even genes), all inhabitants of the area are more-less equally descendants of the ancient Illyrians.

Considering modern Albanians, they are probably a linguistic and ethnic fusion of remnants of old Illyrians, mountain Vlach elements, Slavic invaders, Adriatic coast Romances, Serbs from northern Albania and Albanian Cincars. They have no direct link to ancient Illyrians, no linguistic, traditional and cultural connection, and weren't even ever called Illyrians by neighboring nations, although both they and the Illyrian name were well known. The paradox is that Illyrian name continued to exist and that it described Slavs, and not Albanians, of the area.

There are even serious theories which connect Albanians with Romanians and their ancestors Dacians, suggesting that the ancestors of Albanians (or: the people that played the key part in Albanian ethnogenesis) moved to Albania from Danubian basin in 7th century and that they weren't of Illyrian stock, but of Romance-Dacian. Anyway, their language shows no impressive similarities with what is known about Illyrian (and very little is known), the first being that Illyrian language belonged to 'centum' group together with Romance and Germanic languages, while Albanian belongs to 'satem' group, together with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. Those few Illyrian words that are known show a very weak connection with modern Albanian, equal to the connection with Slavic languages and other I-E languages. Personal Illyrian names don't have a meaning in Albanian (Agron, Teuta...), and weren't in use until 19th and 20th century. To be honest, those known names are mostly Greek transliteration of how ancient Greeks 'heard' them (and which is known that can be very far from the original).

In a nutshell, 'Illyrianism' is a political project meant to boost Albanian national ego and to create a solid historical background for this young nation that for the first time gained its state in 20th century, facing a realistic threat of being divided by Greece, Serbia and Montenegro that claimed their 'historical rights' to the area. It has no serious historical background, which can be seen with Albanian historians among whom there are many who persue the Thracian theory instead of Illyrian, and even those who insist on Pelasgian! (As a matter of fact, it happens that Greeks aren't much impressed by Albanian Illyrianism, since ancient Greeks were already in the Balkans when Illyrians arived, and that Illyrian theory isn't the ultimate mega-autochtonic theory since there was a people called Pelasgians that lived here before both Greeks and Illyrians, which took part in ethnogenesis of both ancient nations. So, voila!, Albanians in fact aren't only Illyrians, but Pelasgians as well. --Almost as serious as the Illyrian hypothesis; an extremely childish perception of history: 'We come first, you come second; we stay, you move').

[Hrvoje]

Originally Posted by Crvena zvezda

I've read that they're Caucausian origin and that they're most closely related to Chechens and Azeri's.

HAHAHAHA,I knew it to bad my post went away, I was out of line, but was only joking.

Originally Posted by Ljubomir

And where did Hrvoje go?

Hahaha, you saw it, what did I tell ya all, what did I tell ya

[Marcus Marulus]

The basic and the most important question in this respect is: who were "Illyrians" in the first place?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Levin

There are even serious theories which connect Albanians with Romanians and their ancestors Dacians, suggesting that the ancestors of Albanians (or: the people that played the key part in Albanian ethnogenesis) moved to Albania from Danubian basin in 7th century and that they weren't of Illyrian stock, but of Romance-Dacian. Anyway, their language shows no impressive similarities with what is known about Illyrian (and very little is known), the first being that Illyrian language belonged to 'centum' group together with Romance and Germanic languages, while Albanian belongs to 'satem' group, together with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. Those few Illyrian words that are known show a very weak connection with modern Albanian, equal to the connection with Slavic languages and other I-E languages. Personal Illyrian names don't have a meaning in Albanian (Agron, Teuta...), and weren't in use until 19th and 20th century. To be honest, those known names are mostly Greek transliteration of how ancient Greeks 'heard' them (and which is known that can be very far from the original).

I agree. The Dacian theory says that Albanians lived in the mountains, while the Romanians lived in the valley. They lived relatively close to each others, so their languages were the same or at least similar.
This would explain the non-existence of original Albanian words for sea or objects connected to sea. They borrowed these words from neighbouring languages, while the words for mountains and connected objects are original. Illyrians lived by the sea for centuires, so it would be highly unusual that they didn't have their own words for sea or boat...

[ScutariShkoder]

It has been repeatedly and constanty proven by non-biased(non-Albanian,non-Macedonian,non-Greek,non-Serb)that Albanians are indeed Illyrians. Now, Im not saying were direct-descendant pure Illyrians but you cant deny that the vast majority of Albanians are predominately Illyrian. Our proper name is ARBERIA, an Illyrian word. The Albanians of Southern Italy who escaped prior to the arrival of Turks during the 1400s in order to maintain their christian religion are called Arberesh. Albanians call ourselves SHQIPTARES as in people of the eagle. The term Albanians originates from the Illyrian tribe Albanoi who occupied what is now Central Albania. Overall Albanians are a mix of Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian, and Pelasgian.

proof:
origin of the Albanians: Information from Answers.com

"In the 2nd Century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius, mentions a city named Arbon in present day central Albania. The people who lived there were called Arbanios and Arbanitai.In the 1st Century ADAD, Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses.In the 2nd century AD, Ptolmey the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drafted a map of remarkable significance for the history of Illyria. This map shows the city of Albanopolis (located south of Durres). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi, who lived around this city."


Illyrian--Albanian

ren -- re
dard--dardhë
toka--tokë
las--lesh
mal--mal
vasa--vashë
ves--vesh
cuza-cucë
nat--natë
ara--arrë
frim--frymë
ra--ra
caj--qaj
nis-nis
roj--rroj
leh--lind (lehem in Geg)
venedi--vendi
hyll--yll
bardi-bardhë
fimia-fëmijë
lissius-lisi

Even our names are ILLYRIAN:
Agron
Arben
Teuta
Gentian(a)
Ardian(a)
Yllka
Gertian
Shkelzen
Madena
Arion
Bardhyll
Ilir(iana)
Alban(a)
Dardan
Ylber

If you would like to contradict this with some facts [edit: unnecessary comment deleted] about how some place in Azerbijistan(sp?) or Scotland is called Albania, lets hear it, Modern Albanian is an Indo-European language. The Udi language, which is believed to be the modern descendant of the language of the ancient caucasian Albanians, is a caucasian language, so that theory goes out the window.

Overall its undeniable that Albanians are descendants of the ancient Illyrians.

[kestutisturbo]

Thanks. It is strong. I guess, we could try to find out something from Kavkaz area thinking about Avar invasion inyo central Europe at the 6 age. Albanians of course are last Illyrians.

[Sergius]

Worth noting: When one people disappears or is assimilated into another advancing people, they will often leave certain things behind - names, words, blood, and other cultural elements. This is relevant for two reasons in this matter. First of all in the case of the Albanians's alledged Illyrian ancestry, in which names, words and even blood isn't enough to rightfully claim ancestry. Sometimes, even direct blood relation can be corrupted. Second, it is also relevant to consider when talking about the Turkish influence on Albania.
In conclusion, no, it is not undeniable.

[Monolith]

Albanians call ourselves SHQIPTARES as in people of the eagle.

As far as I know, the word "SHQIP" means intelligible or understandable.
So the "SHQIPTARES" would be "the people we can understand" or "the people who speak our language". That meaning of national or supranational word is common not only in Albanian, but in ancient Slavic.
"Slav", "Slovo"--Sound--->"the people we can understand"
For example, the closest Germanic neighbours of the Slav peoples are the Germans. Even today, they are called "Nijemci" or "Nemci", which means "the deaf ones", or "the ones whose language has no sense to us". Very simple comparison.

Overall Albanians are a mix of Illyrian, Dacian, Thracian, and Pelasgian.

Indeed, that is true. But no one can speak about the predominance of the "Illyrian blood" because there was no such thing. Illyrians are known to be ethnically mixed people. You can also add Turkic influence into the Albanian gene pool.

Illyrian--Albanian

ren -- re
dard--dardhë
toka--tokë
las--lesh
mal--mal
vasa--vashë
ves--vesh
cuza-cucë
nat--natë
ara--arrë
frim--frymë
ra--ra
caj--qaj
nis-nis
roj--rroj
leh--lind (lehem in Geg)
venedi--vendi
hyll--yll
bardi-bardhë
fimia-fëmijë
lissius-lisi

Today's Albanian language is most certainly a "satem" language, while ancient Illyrian language was most probably a "centum" language.

Even our names are ILLYRIAN:
Agron
Arben
Teuta
Gentian(a)
Ardian(a)
Yllka
Gertian
Shkelzen
Madena
Arion
Bardhyll
Ilir(iana)
Alban(a)
Dardan
Ylber

Can you please explain the meanings of the certain names? I know what "Bardhyll" means, so skip that part.

[Ariets]

Nope, I think they are crypto-IE peoples emulating Ie secret agents of Turks

[Marka Ragnos]

They have some Illyrian blood, just like all other people in same area of Balkans has. I don't believe that they are pure descendants of Illyrians. Albanians in northern-parts of their country looks different (lighter) than those in Kosovo, btw.