Correlating genetic data with Euro phenotypes

[Polak]

Here we have a map of European genetic clusters from another thread.



Because this map is based on 10,000 markers, that come from both parents, we can reasonably assume it is a much better indicator of phenotype than single gene Y-chromosome or mtDNA data, or even both. It's just pure statistics...the more markers you use the more likey that you have a better view of the overall genome, which obviously affects our phenotype.

I've taken this a step further and drawn on the map several areas that I think correspond to phenotypic regions in Europe.



The four main sub-racial areas of Europe, that occasionally overlap to produce various other phenotypes.

Blue: Northern Cro-Magnid types with Uralic influence.
Pink: Northern Cro-Magnid types
Green: Atlantid
Grey: Mediterranean types

So as we can see I don't consider Nordid to be a sub-racial category, but rather a mix of Atlantid and Northern Cro-Magnid.
Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.
Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.

Here's a link to the report where I got the map...

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v80n5/44466/44466.html

[Polak]

Blue: Northern Cro-Magnid types with Uralic influence.
Pink: Northern Cro-Magnid types
Green: Atlantid
Grey: Mediterranean types

To make things clearer, here's different terminology...

Blue: North East European
Pink: North Central European
Green: Western European
Grey: Southern European

[Agrippa]

This is still just a start and there can be no direct correlation between the subracial types of Europe and genetic markers which are older than they are, just a partial or indirect one in certain cases. F.e. a French of the "Finnish cluster" because of his ancestral markers could very well be a Gracilmediterranid racially.
Its very important to note that f.e. Cromagnoid is per se neither Northern nor Southern, but there is, like in the Aurignacoid spectrum, a Northern (core group: Dalofaelid) and Southern (core group: Berberid) flank.
Polak, you made the big mistake of confusing old genetic relations, which are primarily the result of very old prehistoric migrations, with subracial categories, racial types, which are a form of adaptation to a special habitat and way of living.

So as we can see I don't consider Nordid to be a sub-racial category, but rather a mix of Atlantid and Northern Cro-Magnid.

Nordid is for sure a subracial category because it has a distinctive specialisation and trait combination, no matter if it was the result of Mediterranoid migration Northwards, a mix of Mediterranoid with Cromagnoid, of Atlantid Mediterranoids with Cromagnoid or just a derivative of Atlantid Mediterranoids or Cromagnoids etc.
Same with this:

Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.

This would result in a very lose definition of Mediterranean which makes the term almost useless. I suggest to refer in such cases to Northern and Southern Europid rather than "Mediterranean".
Furthermore they evolved out of both Mediterranoid, Cromagnoid and partially Nordoid elements in hundreds and/or (depending region) thousands of years. Their head form was influenced through their habitat and way of living, but thats true for all racial characteristics. They are in any case inherited and the phenotypical variation because of environmental influences in on or two generations is present, can be important, but is never decisive in a way like making an Dinarid or Armenid a Mediterranean, thats absurd!
Just because f.e. some Dinaroid or Armenoid people would get some mm longer heads doesnt mean they become Mediterranid, not even Mediterranoid! They cannot look "fully Mediterranean" with the exception of a useless definition of "Mediterranean". Its well known that f.e. certain facial traits have a very high heritability, and those dont chance even if assuming a strong change of the head shape which is, to a significant degree very unlikely in a typical ("racially pure") bloodline too.

Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.

Trends of Alpinisation took place outside of Europe too and resulted sometimes even in very similar phenotypes, so I'd say that they can be both derivates of Northern as well as Southern Europid forms of the Cromagnoid wider spectrum.
Otherwise nice trial!
Even though I criticised various points and could do so for some more, its good to try such things with whats available now, even if knowing the limitations and that one should be very careful. On the long run it will become more precise and promising.

[Hussar]

Also, I've included brunet Dinarids and Armenoids as Mediterraneans. That's because I believe head form is influenced by enviornment, and under the right circumstances these types can look fully Mediterranean.

Your classification of racial forms is wrong here : Dinarids aren't in the same category of Mediterraneans and Armenids. They are a different sub-racial type deriving from Cromagnid.

Dinarids should be classed within Cromagnids forms.

Moreover, I consider Alpines to be a stunted and brachycephalized form of Northern Cro-Magnid types.

Dinarids have more in common with North-cromagnids type than Alpines do.

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

This would result in a very lose definition of Mediterranean which makes the term almost useless. Their head form was influenced through their habitat and way of living, but thats true for all racial characteristics. They are in any case inherited and the phenotypical variation because of environmental influences in on or two generations is present, can be important, but is never decisive in a way like making an Dinarid or Armenid a Mediterranean, thats absurd!
Just because f.e. some Dinaroid or Armenoid people would get some mm longer heads doesnt mean they become Mediterranid, not even Mediterranoid! They cannot look "fully Mediterranean" with the exception of a useless definition of "Mediterranean". Its well known that f.e. certain facial traits have a very high heritability, and those dont chance even if assuming a strong change of the head shape which is, to a significant degree very unlikely in a typical ("racially pure") bloodline too.

I support your criticism on these points ; sorry to say this, but i suspect this lose classification of south-europid spectrum, reflects some lack of interest or some form of prejudice (in the worst of cases) of Polako toward these categories.

[Menydh]

It is the Polaks disease: http://forum.stirpes.net/racial-clas...tml#post102326

I've come to sympathize with the Germans about Poles, if only there.

[Waarnemer]

Your classification of racial forms is wrong here : Dinarids aren't in the same category of Mediterraneans and Armenids. They are a different sub-racial type deriving from Cromagnid.

Dinarids should be classed within Cromagnids forms.

its highly presumable that all are cromagnid derived, as demonstrated by schriener gracilization in such a direction has been witnessed

Dinarids have more in common with North-cromagnids type than Alpines do.

alpinids are still infact cromagnoid in contrary of dinarids