Another English betrayal : Mers-el-Kebir

[Theobald]

Destruction of the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir

The Destruction of the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kebir, French North Africa (now Algeria), by the British Royal Navy took place on July 3, 1940.

In 1940, during World War II, following the surrender of France to the advancing forces of Nazi Germany, the British were unable to discover whether the terms of the surrender would allow the French fleet to be used against Britain. Such a shift in the balance of power at sea would have seriously threatened Britain's ability to keep her supply lines open, and jeopardised her survival. Winston Churchill therefore personally ordered that the French Navy should either fight alongside the Royal Navy or be neutralised in some way, preventing it from falling into German hands. To prevent this, they launched Operation Catapult.
The French fleet was widely dispersed at this time. Some were in port in France; others had escaped from France to British controlled ports, mainly in Britain itself or Alexandria in Egypt. At the first stage of Operation Catapult, the ships in British ports Plymouth and Portsmouth were simply boarded on July 3, 1940 at night, with few casualties on both sides (on the world's biggest submarine, Surcouf). Other ships were the two obsolete battleships Paris and Courbet and some destroyers and submarines. Many went on to be used by the Free Frenchforces, and some sailors joined the Free French. Other sailors were repatriated to France.
The most powerful concentration of French warships at the time was the flotilla located at the port of Mers-el-Kebir in French Algeria. This consisted of the old battleships Provence and Bretagne, the modern battleships Dunkerque and Strasbourg, the aviation transport Commandante Teste and 6 destroyers, all under the command of Admiral Marcel-Bruno Gensoul. The British Admiral James Sommerville of Force H, based in Gibraltar, was ordered to deliver an ultimatum to the French, stating:

"It is impossible for us, your comrades up to now, to allow your fine ships to fall into the power of the German or Italian enemy. We are determined to fight on until the end, and if we win, as we think we shall, we shall never forget that France was our Ally, that our interests are the same as hers, and that our common enemy is Germany. Should we conquer we solemnly declare that we shall restore the greatness and territory of France. For this purpose we must make sure that the best ships of the French Navy are not used against us by the common foe. In these circumstances, His Majesty's Government have instructed me to demand that the French Fleet now at Mers el Kebir and Oran shall act in accordance with one of the following alternatives;
(a) sail with us and continue the fight until victory against the Germans and Italians.
(b) Sail with reduced crews under our control to a British port. The reduced crews would be repatriated at the earliest moment.
If either of these courses is adopted by you we will restore your ships to France at the conclusion of the war or pay full compensation if they are damaged meanwhile.
(c) Alternatively if you feel bound to stipulate that your ships should not be used against the Germans or Italians unless these break the Armistice, then sail them with us with reduced crews to some French port in the West Indies — Martinique for instance — where they can be demilitarised to our satisfaction, or perhaps be entrusted to the United States and remain safe until the end of the war, the crews being repatriated.
If you refuse these fair offers, I must with profound regret, require you to sink your ships within 6 hours.
Finally, failing the above, I have the orders from His Majesty's Government to use whatever force may be necessary to prevent your ships from falling into German or Italian hands."

Admiral Gensoul refused to accept any of these options, in accordance with orders from Admiral François Darlan , commander of the Vichy French Navy, who insisted that the terms of the Franco-German Armistice be adhered to, that is the surrender of the French Fleet to the Germans. Admiral Gensoul declared that neither the Germans nor the Italians would get his ships, and that force would be repelled with force. Both fleets prepared for battle. The British force consisted of 3 battleships: HMS Hood, HMS Valiant and HMS Resolution and an aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal. The British had an advantage, since French ships were anchored in a narrow harbour. Dunkerque and Strasbourg could not use their main artillery, which was grouped on their bows. Moreover, despite their old age, the British battleships had heavier artillery than the French ones.

The British opened fire on July 3, 1940 at 16:56. The French answered with fire, but it was not effective. In the ensuing action Bretagne exploded and sank at 17:09, while Provence, Dunkerque and a destroyer Mogador were damaged and ran aground. Strasbourg meanwhile was able to escape with 4 destroyers and returned to the French port of Toulon on July 4. The British aircraft from HMS Ark Royal tried to pursue Strasbourg, but without effect.



In the following events, on July 4, the British submarine HMS Pandora sank the French big aviso (gunboat) Rigault de Genouilly, sailing from Oran. On the night of July 4 the French bombers carried out a retaliatory raid over the British fleet in Gibraltar to no great effect. Since the British believed that damage to Dunkerque and Provence was not very serious, the British aircraft Fairey Swordfish from HMS Ark Royal commenced an air raid on Mers-el-Kebir the morning of July 5. One torpedo hit Dunkerque, causing serious damage. In the whole action against Mers-el-Kebir, 1297 French sailors were killed and about 350 were wounded. The action severely strained relations between Britain and France for some time, and gave the Germans a propaganda coup.

However, the action was very influential amongst the leadership of the United States, which was gradually preparing public opinion for escalating involvement in the war. Following the rapid success of the German military, there was considerable speculation that the United Kingdom would soon fall. There seemed to be a great risk that the Royal Navy would fall into German hands, including any material provided to the British by the USA. Martin Gilbert in his biography of Churchill wrote "Within a few days 'Oran' had become a symbol of British ruthlessness and determination".

Churchill noted to a colleague that the French at Oran finally fought "with all their vigour for the first time since the war broke out".

The French ships in Alexandria under command of Admiral Godfroy, including an old battleship Lorraine and four cruisers, were blocked by the British in a port on July 3, and given the same proposals as in Mers-el-Kebir. After negotiations, the French Admiral agreed on July 7 to disarm his fleet and stay in port until the end of the war. They stayed there until 1943, when they eventually joined the Free French.

The last phase of Operation Catapult was an attack on July 8 by aircraft from the carrier HMS Hermes against the modern French battleship Richelieu, staying in Dakar. One torpedo hit and damaged Richelieu.

On November 27, 1942 the Germans indeed attempted to capture the French fleet in Toulon base. This time, the French sank all their ships, including Dunkerque and Strasbourg.

[Theobald]

Mers-el-Kebir

by Irwin J. Kappes

</FONT>As a young sailor during World War Two, I served aboard the U.S.S. CHAMPLIN (DD-601) which escorted an Allied convoy to Oran, Algeria in the spring of 1943. The nearby harbor of Mers-el-Kebir was still littered with the battered and rusty hulks of some of the French warships sunk three years earlier by their erstwhile ally, the British. Our ship tied up to the beached wreck of the 4-stack destroyer EPERVIER—now made useful as an improvised docking pier.

Most of my shipmates hurried ashore to a few trucks waiting to take us on a liberty in nearby Oran. I took a few moments to explore the fallen warrior. Souvenir hunters or salvage crews had long since stripped the ship bare. But the rudder indicator in the pilothouse still pointed dead ahead as if she had been intentionally run aground at full speed. In a moment of reflection, and in my ignorance of world affairs at the time, I wondered why the British would have sought the destruction of their ally’s fleet. In the ensuing years I have studied accounts written at the time. They still provide no truly logical explanation—illustrating once again that in warfare there is often more emotion than logic. And, as in many historic naval engagements, a series of misunderstandings and lack of communication determined the outcome.

The first misunderstanding came in the spring of 1940 when Hitler’s Panzers defeated the French at Sedan, driving the British into a small beachhead at Dunkirk. To the British and American leadership, the successful evacuation of British forces was hailed as providential. But to many Frenchmen it appeared to be an act of cowardly desertion.

The second failure of communication occurred with the signing of the French-German armistice. In March of 1940 the French and British had concluded an agreement that neither would ever sign a separate peace treaty with the Nazis. Three months later Paris had fallen and a beleaguered Premier Paul Reynaud petitioned Churchill to be released from the obligation. Churchill responded in typical fashion. The French would be permitted to explore conditions for an armistice but only on condition that the French fleet set sail for British ports. It was the fourth largest fleet in the world and in German hands could wreak havoc on Allied shipping. He also set forth a proposal of “indissoluble union” between Great Britain and France. It was a dramatic gesture but clearly unrealistic under prevailing circumstances. France was already a beaten nation and was attempting to salvage some measure of sovereignty over the southeastern half of its territory.

French Marine Minister Admiral Darlan had given Churchill his word that the French fleet would never be allowed to fall into the hands of the Nazis. But what neither knew at the time was that Hitler had no interest in acquiring it—only neutralizing it by scuttling or by internment for the duration in French ports “under German or Italian supervision”. Hitler’s naval emphasis had been on submarine warfare and he simply did not have the manpower to staff a fleet of seven battleships, twenty cruisers, two aircraft carriers and dozens of destroyers and auxiliary ships.

The British High Command was very wary of the neutralization of the French fleet in ports of Unoccupied France, as some had proposed. They feared that the Germans might at some point be able to take possession by threatening to torch Paris or Marseille unless the fleet were handed over. After all, Hitler had already displayed far more grievous treachery than this.

The words “under German or Italian supervision” ultimately found their way into Article Eight of the armistice agreement which had been drafted in French. It immediately sounded alarm bells in the British Admiralty because of inclusion of the French word contrôle. In French it means to keep custody of and to inspect, but not to exert operational control. The British, never known for their interest in foreign languages, quite naturally took the word to mean that the Germans would take over control of the French fleet. Feeling betrayed, a meeting of the British War Cabinet on June 24, 1940 concluded that Article Eight’s assurances were to be disregarded. This resulted in a cascading distrust between two nations that had every need--and reason--to feel solidarity with one another, even though one had been beaten by a common enemy.

Still, Churchill’s stirring offer of union had moved Reynaud, who responded to Churchill that, with such stout assurances of support, he would “fight to the last”. Churchill replied by giving orders to the Admiralty to “suspend action” on his earlier demand for the neutralization of the French fleet. But miscommunication once again enters the picture. “Suspend” was translated by the French as rapporter, which can be understood to mean “revoke”—and now it was the French who suspected British treachery.

The unpleasantness rankled Prime Minister Paul Reynaud. For reasons having little to do with his feeling of betrayal, he resigned on June 16 and was replaced by Marshal Pétain, the aging hero of the Battle of Verdun in World War I. Less than a week later, Hitler humbled the French by requiring them to sign an armistice in the same railway car in which the Germans had been forced to sign a humiliating surrender in 1918.

At this time the French fleet was scattered among ports in England, France, Egypt and elsewhere in the eastern Mediterranean. At Portsmouth and Plymouth were two battleships, four cruisers, eight destroyers and numerous subs and small craft. In Alexandria were one battleship, four cruisers and three destroyers. More than twenty destroyers were located in ports on the North African coast. But the main body of the fleet, the Atlantic Squadron, was anchored in Mers-el-Kebir and nearby Oran, Algeria. Here were the battleships BRETAGNE and PROVENCE and the battle cruisers STRASBOURG and DUNQUERQUE as well as thirteen destroyers, four submarines and a seaplane carrier. With no expectation of surface attack, their main batteries were for the most part pointed toward the shore—an oversight that would have disastrous but not decisive consequences.

On July 3rd, Vice Admiral Sir James Somerville’s “Force H” stood off Mers-el-Kebir. It included the battleships RESOLUTION and VALIANT, the battle cruiser HOOD, the carrier ARK ROYAL, two cruisers and eleven destroyers. His orders were to give French Admiral Gensoul four choices. He could join the British fleet or sail to a British port and have his crews repatriated to Unoccupied France. He could sail to Martinique or the U.S. where his ships would be decommissioned. Or alternately, he could scuttle his ships where they lay anchored. If Gensoul refused all four options, the Royal Navy was simply ordered to destroy the French fleet.

“Operation Catapult”, as the plan was dubbed, was strongly opposed by Somerville and by Vice Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham. (The latter was Commander Mediterranean forces and his other major concern at the time was preventing the eleven French warships docked in Alexandria from falling into Axis hands.) Both feared that the fleet’s destruction would convert a defeated ally into an enemy and fuel anti-British sentiment even among otherwise friendly allies. Somerville even dared oppose his headstrong prime minister by proposing that the French fleet be permitted to put to sea where they would be “captured” by Force H. Churchill brushed the idea aside and Somerville’s subsequent naval career suffered for his having proposed it.

One final attempt to neutralize the French fleet was made when Captain Cedric Holland was sent into the harbor of Mers-el-Kebir aboard the destroyer FOXHOUND to confer with Admiral Gensoul. He spoke French fluently and as a devoted Francophile was totally dejected about the French defeat. Likewise, Gensoul regarded himself as pro-British but as a proud naval commander had expected to negotiate personally with Somerville—or at least an officer of flag rank. The snub offended Gensoul who responded in kind by sending his lieutenant, Bernard Dufay, to meet with Holland. But Holland insisted that his orders were to deliver his message personally to Admiral Gensoul. The demand was relayed to Gensoul aboard his flagship, the DUNQUERQUE, but Gensoul would have none of it. He ordered Holland to board the FOXHOUND and leave the harbor at once. Still in the belief that Gensoul would listen to reason if only he could be approached in person, Holland made a daring move. He boarded the FOXHOUND’s whaleboat and made a dash across the harbor for the DUNQUERQUE. After much delay he was ultimately able to communicate the Admiralty’s terms directly to Gensoul. They negotiated for nearly two hours, but Gensoul was not optimistic. He had already ordered all ships to fire up their boilers in preparation for action. During these final talks, Gensoul showed Holland a copy of his orders from Admiral Darlan. They revealed that if any foreign power were to try to seize control of the French fleet they were to immediately set sail either for the United States or be scuttled. But in retrospect it is clear that Gensoul was merely trying to buy time to allow his ships to prepare for battle.

In the final and most critical failure of communication, Gensoul failed to send Admiral Darlan the full text of the British terms, which would have permitted the French fleet to sail to the United States. It is doubtful that it would have made a difference. Gallic pride prevented Gensoul from any willingness to negotiate while under threat of British fire. And to make matters even worse, while negotiations were still underway, British Swordfish planes from the carrier ARK ROYAL were already dropping magnetic mines in an attempt to prevent the French fleet from leaving port.

In London, Churchill was becoming impatient. Suspecting that Darlan had ordered eastern Mediterranean units of the French fleet to come to Gensoul’s assistance, he finally ordered Force H to resolve the impasse at once. At 5:26 P.M. Somerville radioed Gensoul that if none of the British proposals were accepted within 15 minutes, he would be obliged to “sink your ships”. Both sides had boxed themselves into a corner from which there was no honorable retreat. It was one of the great naval tragedies of the Second World War.

As Captain Holland was leaving the DUNQUERQUE he saluted the French tricolor smartly with tears in his eyes. As he boarded the boat for his return to the FOXHOUND he heard the call to battle stations sound over the fleet’s speakers. He said later that he couldn’t believe all this was happening. He hadn’t even reached the HOOD ten miles offshore when Force H opened fire. HOOD’s 15-inch shells first struck the DUNQUERQUE, destroying a gun turret, the main generator and the ship’s hydraulic system. Despite being the most heavily armored capital ship ever built by any navy, she was put out of action within four minutes, set afire and beached. The old battleship BRETAGNE was sunk, and the PROVENCE was heavily damaged as were the 3,500 ton contre-torpilleur MOGADOR and several other ships.

Huge columns of thick black smoke rose from the harbor. The French fleet pitiably attempted to return fire but was quickly silenced. Somerville’s main target, the 26,500 ton battle cruiser STRASBOURG managed to escape damage in the hail of fire and using the smoke as a screen got underway carefully picking its way through the burning hulks and minefields. Once safely outside of the harbor, and racing at flank speed, the STRASBOURG and several destroyers out-maneuvered Somerville and made it safely to the French port of Toulon. Against overwhelming odds it was an incredible display of both courage and seamanship. Though frustrated, even the British Admiralty was admiring.

Aside from the loss of the main body of the French fleet, the cost of Britain’s OPERATION CATAPULT to the French was l,297 men killed or missing, with 354 wounded. The British had not a single casualty, but the loss in British-French relations, at least for a time, was incalculable. Addressing his sailors during a memorial service for the dead, Admiral Gensoul bitterly told his men, “If there is a stain on a flag today, it is certainly not on yours”. For his part, Admiral Somerville later commented that the action at Mers-el-Kebir was “the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us…we all feel thoroughly ashamed…” In a letter to his wife he predicted (correctly) that he would be criticized for having let the STRASBOURG escape, and wrote that, “In fact, I shouldn’t be surprised if I was relieved forthwith. I don’t mind because it was an absolutely bloody business…The truth is my heart wasn’t in it.”

The leader of the Free French cause, General Charles de Gaulle, was headquartered in London and he reacted with anger and expressed disgust that the British press was announcing the event as a great victory. However, he could ill-afford to be too critical of his otherwise supportive British hosts. The operation also caused a near collapse of his efforts to enlist French volunteers in his movement. Few Frenchmen would now fight alongside the British in the great anti-Nazi crusade. But in the U.S., the press echoed the British view of CATAPULT as a great naval victory, though the whole thing left most Americans somewhat puzzled.

In Germany, Hitler and his Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels had a field day promoting anti-British rage in occupied France. Posters showing drowning French sailors and proclaiming “Remember Oran” began appearing all over Paris. One poster even depicted a bloated and evil-looking Churchill grinning over the cemetery crosses of the French fallen. A Berlin newspaper proclaimed the action as “the greatest scoundrelism in world history.” Many Frenchmen agreed.

The new French government of Unoccupied France reacted furiously, severing relations with Britain. And so great was the feeling of betrayal there that it was only through Marshal Pétain’s influence that the Vichy government did not cast its lot with the Nazis.

The poisonous atmosphere was not yet dispelled one month later when Churchill made a long, and some thought, hypocritical peroration in the House of Commons on the heroism of the seamen on both sides, describing it as a “melancholy action”. With tears in his eyes he spoke of the tragedy of his forces having to fire on their former allies. There were cheers on both benches, but some may have recalled how the whole affair might have been avoided by better communication and by just a little more trust and good will.



THE BATTLE LINE

BRITISH:
Vice Admiral Sir James Somerville, Commanding
3 Battleships (HMS HOOD, HMS VALIANT, HMS RESOLUTION)
1 Aircraft Carrier (HMS ARK ROYAL)
2 Cruisers (HMS ENTERPRISE, HMS ARETHUSA)
10 Destroyers


FRENCH:
Admiral Marcel-Bruno Gensoul, Commanding
2 Battle Cruisers (DUNQUERQUE, STRASBOURG)
2 Battleships (PROVENCE, BRETAGNE)
1 Seaplane Carrier
13 Destroyers
4 Submarines
12 Small Craft

[Theobald]

Some French posters after Mers el-Kebir :



(Dead for England)










(Victory - The Great European Crusade)

[Prinz Eugen]

Mers-el-kebir in my oppinion was a war crime !British murdered many innocent French sailors with no reason!

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by White Rider

Mers-el-kebir in my oppinion was a war crime !British murdered many innocent French sailors with no reason!

Only one Nation is able to bomb its own ally and to kill 1,300 of its soldiers ...

[Aeternitas]

It looks like this is one more example of war crimes during WWII. What a horrible story

[Carnyx]

The list of english betrayals is so long...

[Dirkhrod]

The list of French surrenders is so long...

Who is it that betrayed their allies by not even fighting the common foe ? Who is it that brought misery upon Europe after Versailles, with their meanlyness and lack of vision ?
Who is it that brought Europe revolution and 20 years of destruction in the name of Jewish egalitarism ?
Who is it that betrayed their fellow Europeans in 1776 and sided with the "Democracy" that was soon to devour us all ?
Who is it that assisted Argentina in the Falklands against their NATO allies ?

Indeed, "il est un ciel vengeur"... France was humiliated so many times it apparently grew accustomed to it. I see it makes her proud to be invaded. I see it makes her proud to break oath after oath and revels in slavery.



I mean not to slander France. I really don't. I joined these boards full of hope to find people sharing the ideal of European Nationalism.

But I cannot, and will not stand aside while that country which brought Europe most, the country which stretched European power to the end of the world, the country who gave us so many great men is slandered only because it dared defend itself and knew to wage war so that it did not end up invaded every 50 years.

You must realise that European history is full of rivalries. The Anglo-French one is probably the greatest and runs deepest. Live with it, for it is part of the European heritage, and this most sublime of conflicts between the greatest two nations on earth has forged Europe's mastery of the world.

England and France were, are and shall always be rivals. The only way to end that is by destroying them both (which is happening now). But as Frenchmen, or as Englishmen, respect your ancestral foe, for his power has made you grow and your power has made him grow. England and France cannot exist without eachother. Fight the rival, but do not slander him, for it is to your own loss.


So for all you Frenchmen out there... Fight England, but do not do bash it. For without her, you would not be as great a nation as you are. And this, of course, is the same for Englishmen and France.

And no, I am not an Englishman, I am a Romanian.

[Menydh]

I've rarely read so much unconnexed nonsense... on a first post!

Anyway. You have slandered France despite your denial. Now you are free game for the French here.

(getting ready to split the thread and send parts to C.O. )

[Theobald]

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

The list of French surrenders is so long...

Really ? I think you are talking about 1940. Then you should know that even if some French surrendered, some others didn't.

http://www.answers.com/topic/appeal-of-june-18

http://www.answers.com/Free%20french

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

Who is it that betrayed their allies by not even fighting the common foe ?

The Brits when they evacuated their forces in Dunkirk, cowardly giving up French troops ?

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

Who is it that brought misery upon Europe after Versailles, with their meanlyness and lack of vision ?

The Jacobine Republicans who (unfortunately) ruled France ?

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

Who is it that brought Europe revolution and 20 years of destruction in the name of Jewish egalitarism ?

Only a nation of immigration was able to invent the formal nation-of-state, thus develop the abstruse notion that one becomes a fellow-countryman through an official act, through permission to settle in a territory. The corresponding notions of citizenship in France of 1789 and the following years are an American import, via freemasonic dealers in ideas.

- Dr. Reinhold Oberlercher

Then after 1799 it was rather French imperialism than "Jewish egalitarism".

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

Who is it that betrayed their fellow Europeans in 1776 and sided with the "Democracy" that was soon to devour us all ?

Fellow Europeans ? Where ? There were two non-European sides, the Brits and the American rebels, we chose the Americans because of strategical interests.

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

Who is it that assisted Argentina in the Falklands against their NATO allies ?

Wrong forum.

Originally Posted by Dickrod

France was humiliated so many times it apparently grew accustomed to it.

What to answer to such a moronic statement...

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

I see it makes her proud to be invaded.

It is funny from a Romanian. Tatars and Mongols, Turks, Austrians, Hungarians, Russians, Germans, Soviets, ... (I specify that I have nothing Romanian people, only against one Romanian)

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

But I cannot, and will not stand aside while that country which brought Europe most

Yes, England brought Europe most. Brotherwars in order to keep its influence.

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

the country which stretched European power to the end of the world

But France, Spain, Portugal or Russia probably didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

only because it dared defend itself and knew to wage war so that it did not end up invaded every 50 years.

As I don't like to repeat myself :

Nobody, no army on earth, could've held off the Germans under the conditions that the French faced them. The French lost because they had a long land border with Germany. The English survived because they had the English Channel between them and the Wehrmacht.

Source

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

England and France were, are and shall always be rivals. The only way to end that is by destroying them both.

I fail to understand your logic there.

Originally Posted by Durkhrod

But as Frenchmen, or as Englishmen, respect your ancestral foe, for his power has made you grow and your power has made him grow.

I respect England. It doesn't mean I like it though. Moreover I don't see how its power "has made France grow". What a nonsense.

Originally Posted by Dirkhrod

England and France cannot exist without eachother.

I tend to disagree.

Originally Posted by Dickrod

Fight the rival, but do not slander him, for it is to your own loss.
So for all you Frenchmen out there... Fight England, but do not do bash it. For without her, you would not be as great a nation as you are. And this, of course, is the same for Englishmen and France.

Thanks. Romanian opinion has been taken into account.

[Dirkhrod]

Really ? I think you are talking about 1940.

Not only. For instance, what I had in mind was 1871.

The Brits when they evacuated their forces in Dunkirk, cowardly giving up French troops ?

So they should have stayed and fight for a France that wouldn't fight ?

The Jacobine Republicans who (unfortunately) ruled France ?

I meant the Treaty of Versailles.

Only a nation of immigration was able to invent the formal nation-of-state, thus develop the abstruse notion that one becomes a fellow-countryman through an official act, through permission to settle in a territory. The corresponding notions of citizenship in France of 1789 and the following years are an American import, via freemasonic dealers in ideas.

I agree. Yet it happened in France and the French people seemed enraptured by it. You also had several other revolutions in the 1800s and generally French nationalism (in itself a good thing) is linked with the Republic (a very, very bad thing).

Fellow Europeans ? Where ? There were two non-European sides, the Brits and the American rebels, we chose the Americans because of strategical interests.

British Imperialism is European. The Values of the Revolution are semitic.

It is funny from a Romanian. Tatars and Mongols, Turks, Austrians, Hungarians, Russians, Germans, Soviets

True. However, Romanians do not think of themselves as a great power.

Yes, England brought Europe most. Brotherwars in order to keep its influence.

So ? Those Brotherwars were GOOD. They made us all strong. Eversince they ceased we have become a mere shadow of ourselves.

But France, Spain, Portugal or Russia probably didn't do that.

To a much lesser extent.

Nobody, no army on earth, could've held off the Germans under the conditions that the French faced them. The French lost because they had a long land border with Germany. The English survived because they had the English Channel between them and the Wehrmacht.

I agree, BUT: France knew it had a long border. France allowed Germany to reach such an advantageous position, it allowed an obvious hostile nation to grow unchecked and was caught unprepared. France is a big country and was in a much better state than Germany in 1919. Yet it didn't learn from 1871 or 1914. The times of peace are there to prepare for war. If you don't, bad things happen, like in 1940.

I respect England. It doesn't mean I like it though.

I never said you should. No sane Frenchman should.

Moreover I don't see how its power "has made France grow". What a nonsense.

Did not the English invasion in the HYW led to France finally reaching a national conscience ? The wars between England and France brought out the best in each nation. They witnessed deeds of heroism on both sides. The more powerful one country got, the more the other worked to surpass it. England instilled ambition and patriotism in France, and vice-versa. They both became great powers out of this struggle. France succumbed first to leftism though (although England doesn't fare any better now).

I tend to disagree.

England as a nation was made by a invasion from France (which was a very good thing, imo). France as a national state was made by an invasion from England, which ended the ceaseless feudal bickering among the Dukes and united people and King under one common purpose.