Anglo-American "democratic imperialism" and 0.9 billion infant deaths

[Menydh]

Tell me what you want next.. Ireland? Germany (Dresden)? Quebec? Acadians? India? more Africa?

[Zed]

You can find all kinds of it on the net, it doesn't make it true. If the camps were so bad why did Smuts say;

He was pleased with his work and he was like one awaked out of a bad dream, the bad dream of the last four years since the war. His resentment disappeared. He rediscovered that the English were a great people. The Dutch were dour and unforgiving, never forgetting an injury. The English in England forgave generously and forgot quickly. They were giving back the Transvaal to the Dutch in all but name, and only four years after a war that had cost them tens of thousands of English lives and 200 million pounds in money. "Only a people like the English could do that," he said. "They may make mistakes, but they're a great people."

Now, let's discuss the Aztecs and the Maya.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Zed

You can find all kinds of it on the net, it doesn't make it true.

Actually, it wasn't on the internet that I first read about the British concentration camps.

That it is on the internet doesn't make it true... nor lie.

If the camps were so bad why did Smuts say;

Smuts? Read the following two quotes..

Jan Christian Smuts holds the unique distinction of being the only individual to sign both peace settlements reached after the First and Second World Wars. Of Afrikaner roots (Smuts was born in Malmesbury, Cape Colony), Smuts fought in the Second Boer War of 1899-1902 against the British.

Notwithstanding this, Smuts' argued for South Africa's place within the British Empire and worked with the British through both world wars, occupying senior positions in each.

[...]

With the declaration of war, he offered immediate military assistance to Britain. The day to day military command of the invasion of German Southwest Africa (Namibia) in July 1915 was handed to Smuts. Curiously, despite the German guerrilla leader von Lettow-Vorbeck's success in continually evading Smuts, his success in capturing large tracts of land, and especially the German Southwestern capital of Dar-es-Salaam, brought Smuts great credit in Britain.

Arriving in Britain in March 1917 as head of the South African delegation to the Imperial War Conference, Smuts was feted by an admiring Lloyd George, who offered him a place in the War Cabinet.

He joined the War Cabinet, became a Privy Councillor and was largely responsible, in 1918, for the establishment of the Royal Air Force (formerly the Royal Flying Corps, but now an independent section of the armed forces in its own right).

At the Paris Peace Conference, representing South Africa, Smuts argued for reconciliation with the defeated Germany, although he did agree the case for German reparations.

A major proponent of the League of Nations (and so, despite his reservations about growing U.S. worldwide influence, an ally of President Wilson), Smuts argued that Germany's overseas possessions - removed from her by the Treaty of Versailles - should be managed by League of Nations' 'mandates'.

[...]

During the Gold Standard Crisis of 1933 he was appointed as Deputy Prime Minister until 1939. Smuts condemned the Nazi-inspired Greyshirt movement, and was a great supporter of Zionism. So much so that Ramat Yochanan, a Jewish settlement in Palestine, was named in honour of him in 1937. Upon the outbreak of World War II he again became Prime Minister. As intimate collaborator of Winston Churchill and others, his role in this struggle was almost greater than during World War I. Smuts became a Field Marshal of the Allied Forces in September 1941. Following the Second World War, his major achievement was drafting the Covenant of the United Nations.

http://zar.co.za/smuts.htm

Jan Smuts was largely responsible for the drafting of the Union of South Africa's constitution as a delegate to the National Convention. He was also Minister of Interior, Defence and Mines in the first Union Cabinet. Due to his reconcilliatory attitude towards the English he was unpopular with his kinsmen. He also antagonized Afrikaner Nationalists by not reprieving Jopie Fourie, the only rebel executed after the failed Boer rebellion of 1914-1915.

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/smuts-j.htm

Working for Brits and Jews, he is clearly not the most reliable source. But the pictures and the accounts are there. Feel free to look around.

Originally Posted by Zed

Now, let's discuss the Aztecs and the Maya.

Anytime.

[Menydh]

Perhaps you didn't get to read the texts quoted on previous posts:

"David Lloyd George, an MP who would later serve as his country's Prime Minister during the First World War, accused the British authorities of pursuing "a policy of extermination" against women and children."

"During a speech in Parliament on February 18, 1901, David Lloyd George quoted from a letter by a British officer: "We move from valley to valley, lifting cattle and sheep, burning and looting, and turning out women and children to weep in despair beside the ruin of their once beautiful homesteads." Lloyd George commented: "It is a war not against men, but against women and children." "

[Zed]

Originally Posted by Mynydd

Working for Brits and Jews, he is clearly not the most reliable source.

I see, only anti-British sources are reliable.

[Menydh]

Well, British sources are highly unreliable as proved by the fact that the list of false propaganda spread against nearly every nation is non-ending. There comes a time when you have to realize that the enemities that you have cultivated are too many, and that you have none left to call a friend since you have been/are friendly to no one.

If you find Boer sources anti-British, this is because Brits gave them a good reason for becoming anti-British. However, Lloyd George can hardly be said to be anti-British since he was a British politician, and his words leave no doubt as to what was going on.

[Zed]

[This paragraph is ad hominem]

At the time he made the statements you quoted, Lloyd-George would have been an Opposition politician. They are accustomed to making extravagant criticisms of government policy and he was known as a fiery speechmaker. He was referring to a letter written by a chivalrous officer who deplored the anti-guerrilla tactics which the British Army was forced to employ against the Boer guerrillas. None of this is very surprising but none of it supports your exaggerated claims that the British were pursuing a policy of exterminating the Boers in these camps. The death toll in the camps was caused by disease, the claims of powdered glass, etc, in the rations are just propaganda. The British public was shocked and dismayed by the news that Boer women and children were dying and sent a great deal of aid to them. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle among others went out to the Cape to provide medical aid in the camps.

[More ad hominems here]

[Menydh]

Your excuses are poor, for not using a different word.

Next, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you said that they went voluntarily into the camps. Actually, that they begged you to joing the camps.

Stay around, the next round is about the Irish. But do make sure that you don't make use of more ad hominem attacks.

[Zed]

Actually, you have "forgotten" that the next round was to be about the Spanish treatment of the Aztecs and the Incas. After all, we need to see the contrast in your "country's" approach to these matters.

If you wish to debate, take me off moderation and stop editing my responses. [Yet another ad hominem]

[Menydh]

The Last Will of Queen Isabella of Castille, dictated in the Castle of La Mota, Medina del Campo, in November 23rd, 1504.

Warrant for the Christianization, Justice and Respect for the Indians of America.

Item, for all the time which the Islands and Firm Lands of the Ocean Sea, the discovered and those to be discovered, were granted to us by the Apostolic Holy See, our main intention was at the time that we plead with the Pope Alexander VI, of good memory, who conceded them unto us, to try to induce and to deliver the peoples in them and to convert them to our Holy Catholic Faith, and to send to such Islands and Firm Lands, prelates and men of religion and other learned and fearful of God people, to instruct their neighbours and dwellers in the Catholic Faith, and to teach them and to adoctrinate them in the good customs, and to put into it the due diligence, in accordance with what is wider explained in the letters contained in such concession; thereafter, I beg the King my lord with much affection, and I entrust and command the aforesaid Princess, my daughter, and the aforesaid Prince, her husband, that they do it so and fulfil it, and that they put much diligence into it, and that they don't allow nor do they give way to any wrongs are done, in their persons or their belongings, onto the Indians neighbours and dwellers of the aforementioned Indies and Firm Land, those which have been won and those which are yet to be won, and that they give orders for them to be well and fairly treated, and that if they receive any wrongs have they received, they put remedy to it and provide in any way that there are no excesses in anything of what is onto us ordered and commended by the apostolic letters.

Which explains why in the Spanish Americas Indians are still in their majority, and well alive. Unlike in the British colonies, where they have been mostly exterminated.

[Menydh]

Other posts have been deleted for containing ad hominem attacks such as "wanker" and the like. Together with the above censored ad hominems, there are reasons more than enough to ban you.

Thread closed.