Englishmen, and Other Aborigines

[Brigid]

As I said previously, the past dictates the present.
If you focus solely on the present then how can you make sense of anything?

You can acknowledge and understand the past without focusing on it and being imprisoned by it.

Ignoring the unkind "half-witted" comment,

I was speaking generally, not about you personally.

It's easy to poo-poo something as belonging in the past when you live on the other side of the world and have no daily experience of such things.

Sure. I guess where I'm coming from is that as an Australian, I am sick and tired of having institutionalised guilt for a British Imperialistic past being hoisted on my people. Perhaps this doesn't even happen in England, I don't know. But here it is rampant in our school system and our media, and it is very effective. This whole occupation of Ireland issue is not really relevant to me. We all have our own issues which dictate our perceptions... you interpret this article regarding the English as relating directly to the relations between Ireland and England, I see it differently. And you're right that I am quite indifferent really to the whole occupation of Ireland situation. I don't really see it as any of my business.

Any people with the history the English have should be ashamed of it, collectively, but not personally. I am ashamed of certain Irish (traitors or whatever). I am ashamed of them as fellow countryman of ill repute, but I don't walk around wracked with personal guilt.

Well that's nice for you, but things are different for Australians. We are still imprisoned by our past to a great extent in my opinion. Collective self-dislike is an ugly thing. It's one thing being generally proud of one's past, only being ashamed of certain minor aspects, it's another altogether to be crippled by things that occurred in another lifetime, and do not still occur today.

how can you then say that the comparison is unfair?

Because I would guess that this...

all the while the Luftwaffe is flying overhead and still bombing London into dust?

... is a far more extreme situation than what is occurring in Ireland.

So what is the English national character? One wrecked by a crippling guilt?

I think its misleading to suggest that the English character is one in which guilt, remorse and shame are rarely experienced. This has been quite contradictory to my experiences with them.

Germany is crippled by the Holocaust guilt, but England is in no way crippled by it's imperial past.

Well Australia is.

Cool, so that doesn't make me Anti-English then?

No. Threads like this make you anti-English (and anti-Australian no doubt). Dumb Britain

Care to elaborate?

Well not really, because I feel you already understand where I'm coming from on this. You and I just disagree on this, and that's fine.

No, there was multiculturalism. British culture & rule was exported across the world. People with no previous connections were now united under the same crown. The British monarchs were entertained with African dancers and Indian elephants paarading about for their pleasure. Britain was a global, multicultural, commercial empire. The English didn't seem to mind foisting their language, culture and traditions on the rest of the world.

Well, biculturalism then.

They only started getting uncomfortable with it when the foreign subjects decided to come over to England for a visit.

Yes.

Correct.

Mass slave labour then? I doubt it.

[Historical note - the only REAL native Brits are the Welsh, and the Scots to a lesser degree ]

Historical note - it's all about historical context... go far back enough and we're all natives of Africa supposedly. As an Irishman you too are most certainly a descendant of invaders and colonials, no doubt some of them violent and cruel, at some point. Make you proud?

What cost?
These people are not slaves. They are brought over, given underpaid jobs and then expected to survive on what they get. Some of them are already trained and educated - go into any British hospital and try and find a British doctor. It will take you some time. Those who aren't are only needed for untrained jobs anyway. Government is controled by business interests and financiers.
The only costs they are involved with are wages. Services such as health service, education, housing ,etc are paid by the treasury, that is by taxes, that is by the average British tax payer. These things don't cost business a penny.

What cost? Well travel is expensive Milesian. Housing of regugees and covering living costs to support the same in the initial stages is expensive too. And cheap 3rd world labour would require training and education to a certain degree, which is expensive for tax payers also. Drs and other professionals would not be paid below award rates I'm sure... and they hardly qualify as cheap, exploited 3rd world labour. Even those foreign professionals who are fully qualified in their own countries would need to meet certain requirements in their new country... most often entailing further education or acquisition of skills. But you weren't really referring to professionals originally were you? You were saying that these poor, hapless countries are being plundered still today by England to extract cheap, exploited labour.

This exploitation of poor, victimised 3rd worlders by big, nasty England just doesn't ring true with me. Doesn't make economic sense.

Where have I ever said you were? Re-read my post again.What you perceive me to have written and what I actually wrote, I think you will find, are not the same.

Ok, well if I have misinterpreted your remarks, I apologise. I thought it was some kind of dig at Anglo's being underhanded and conniving. It wouldn't be the first time I've read such comments around here.

But you just implied the opposite earlier. That the principles of democracy as they present them to us are not in fact the way it practically works. So you have contradicted yourself here. Which is it to be?

No I didn't contradict myself. The working principles are to me one in the same as the practical workings... idealising democracy as some kind of "power to the people" solution where all of the masses no matter how uneducated, unintelligent or incapable of common sense can be held responsible for the actions of the elected govt is just convenient for some. But it is unfair, and it is misleading.

I didn't hold the whole population personally responsible, you can clearly see that by reading carefully what I said. As for cop-outs, isn't the "Only following orders" one not a textbook example?

You said that the English should feel ashamed of themselves. I would interpret this as meaning "personally ashamed". And what are you trying to say with the "following orders" comment? You think that average English civilians are guilty of what exactly?

By inferring that I am some kind of vengeful Anti-English bigot with the intention of trying to inflict some kind of guilt complex on everyday English people.

Well once again, I wasn't referring to you personally... I was speaking in general... as in, if one does this, then it most likely merely serves as a justification for that. This would apply to anyone in any circumstance. Just my theory.

It's an indication that often the most vociferous champions & apologists of that artificial entity known as "Britain" are often not even British at all (other than in their minds)

I'm not interested in engaging in some kind of throw-back debate about colonials trying to grasp at false indentities. I've read enough of that sort of shit around these forums, and quite frankly, I'm bored with it. I'm not a champion, nor an apologist for Britain... I can merely relate to this British Imperialistic past guilt trip, that cripples Anglo-Saxons currently, as a direct descendent of those who were a part of it (English in the British Empire). Regardless of what country I reside in, my own personal history, and the histories of many Australians (who are often not so mixed as you seem to think - most of our families have not been in Australia long enough for this to have become commonplace), are the same as for the English residing in England up to a point. This point being where our forefathers left England.

This struggling for some kind of identity after coming from a mixed background is something found in other New World colonies. It is the result of Imperial Multiculturalism. I wish such people good luck in finding a solution.
It is an unenviable position to be placed in, to say the least.

You really should stick with commenting on things you understand Milesian. I was not referring to any kind of mixed background, apart from English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Irish (!) all being thrown in together through the (short) course of Australian history. And this poses no conflict for us. Other ethnic groups are generally still greatly socially isolated in Australia, and remain true to their own roots. They are not currently, and hopefully never will be, generally considered "Australian".

What you imply for Australia is the same as implying that Poles, Africans and Irish in Ireland should all have to find a common identity, despite mixed backgrounds. Australians don't have to find a common identity with these minority groups in our country because they don't belong here and will never be the same as us. They have only been in the country since the end of WW2, before this Australia was overwhelmingly British/Irish, with some minor German and Dutch immigration too. Oh, and the aborigines.

On the other hand, I never claimed that anyone here was on a mission to unfairly and vengefully inflict a pathological guilt on a poor victimised people over their past. I'm such a rotter, aren't I?

Very emotive language choice there Milesian. You clearly said that the English should still carry shame for their past... I disagreed. I think you like to hate them. Actually, I think you like to hate British post-colonials too.

The sooner the accursed union is dissoved and the subject nations released from it's bond, the better for all. Your user title on the other hand tends to indicate different intentions......you aren't anti-English, are you?

Subject nations should be independent if they wish, I agree. I wonder if all affected would really want this though?

However this is not really relevant in Australia.

As for my username, well, I chose it lightly... I like the name Brigid and it is the name of a Goddess... so I thought it was pleasant. This was the original name that I chose when I joined Skadi the first time. Then when I left I just used the nickname Bridie because I'm not very creative and I like that "brace yourself Bridie" joke. I actually wanted to name one of my daughters Brigid, but my husband at the time didn't like it. And no, I don't think using an Irish name would be pretentious considering that my kids are half Irish. ( shock horror at the miscegenation! ) Sorry, no great political significance there.

EDIT - just occurred to me that the user title is the wording under the username? Oh well, I'm not opposed to England being independent at all. It's just not the current state of affairs...

[Brigid]

Sorry Susi, I missed your last post previously.

Well I was merely refuting your point.

Fair enough.

Semantics is usually in regards to grammar and spelling. Not to knowledge of history. Read more.

No, you're wrong there. The concept of "semantics" relates directly to the meaning of language, and connotations of words. Semantics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because you feel so old you have to pick on someone who is around 15 years younger?

Well, it is a good opportunity, I must admit... ... but I tend to take the piss out of people of all ages, and from all backgrounds, so don't worry, I'm not discriminatory in this respect.

Wasn't the original European population of Australia primarily convicts...? I didn't think I needed to spell it out... And you didn't answer my question

Not European , but British and Irish. But yes Australia was of course originally colonised by mostly convicts. However, this was just a convenient way for the British to expand their empire. Convict deportation to Australia didn't last for long, and the vast majority of Anglo/Celt Australians today have no convict heritage. I don't either. This is me : Skadi Forum

So on average my family has been out of England for maybe about 100 years? I'm not very good with maths, and I can't be bothered working it out properly.

Oki doki.

Come on now Susi, don't get greedy ... you've been abusing me ever since I joined... let everyone else have a turn too.

[Menydh]

Originally Posted by Brigid

So on average my family has been out of England for maybe about 100 years? I'm not very good with maths, and I can't be bothered working it out properly.

The day that there is an ID card for ancestry records, you should demand a "CLEAN, NON CONVICT ANCESTRY" clause in yours.

[Brigid]

The day that there is an ID card for ancestry records, you should demand a "CLEAN, NON CONVICT ANCESTRY" clause in yours.

You're not discriminating against convicts are you Mynydd?? Convicts aren't bad people really... they're just morally challenged, and as a special minority group deserve special treatment and privileges, lest they one day become extinct.

[Errigal]

Originally Posted by Brigid

Sure. I guess where I'm coming from is that as an Australian, I am sick and tired of having institutionalised guilt for a British Imperialistic past being hoisted on my people. Perhaps this doesn't even happen in England, I don't know. But here it is rampant in our school system and our media, and it is very effective. This whole occupation of Ireland issue is not really relevant to me. We all have our own issues which dictate our perceptions... you interpret this article regarding the English as relating directly to the relations between Ireland and England, I see it differently. And you're right that I am quite indifferent really to the whole occupation of Ireland situation. I don't really see it as any of my business.

Brigid, it is more than a little annoying that after all these posts, it turns out you are not really much concerned with England or the nations living in the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. Instead, you’re concerned with the position of Anglo-Celts in Australia. Well that really wasn’t the topic, was it?

I honestly wish the old-stock Australians all the best, but what do your comments have to do with England and its future or the future of Great Britain and Ireland? I have more affinity for the British Empire than most people here at Stirpes (the competition in that category is not fierce) but Australia is not in Europe. If it was it would compete in UEFA and the Eurovision song contest like Israel.

[Brigid]

Brigid, it is more than a little annoying that after all these posts, it turns out you are not really much concerned with England or the nations living in the islands of Great Britain and Ireland. Instead, you’re concerned with the position of Anglo-Celts in Australia.

Yes, I can see how you would feel this way... but you've got me wrong then. I am interested in the plight of the English redefining themselves and how history has affected their self-identities. I was merely admitting my limitations as an Australian. But as for being interested in the English occupation of Ireland... well, this certainly wasn't the focus of the article either. My point in saying this...

Sure. I guess where I'm coming from is that as an Australian, I am sick and tired of having institutionalised guilt for a British Imperialistic past being hoisted on my people. Perhaps this doesn't even happen in England, I don't know. But here it is rampant in our school system and our media, and it is very effective. This whole occupation of Ireland issue is not really relevant to me. We all have our own issues which dictate our perceptions... you interpret this article regarding the English as relating directly to the relations between Ireland and England, I see it differently. And you're right that I am quite indifferent really to the whole occupation of Ireland situation. I don't really see it as any of my business.

... was to highlight the fact that Milesian and I were viewing this situation from very different vantage points... probably leading to discrepancies in our interpretations of the situation.

And my point here in case you missed it....

Quote:
Any people with the history the English have should be ashamed of it, collectively, but not personally. I am ashamed of certain Irish (traitors or whatever). I am ashamed of them as fellow countryman of ill repute, but I don't walk around wracked with personal guilt.
Well that's nice for you, but things are different for Australians.

... was that you can't compare peoples with very different histories (eg, the Irish and the English) and say *well, it's like this for me, so it should be like this for them too.* But I could hardly say "things are different for English living in England" as an Australian now can I? So I adjusted my comment... although I feel it was still relevant.


Funny how it's fine for connections and relevancies to be drawn between English occupation of Ireland and English self-identity, but not between Australian (colonised by Britain in the expansion of the British empire) ethnic English and English... even though our histories up to a certain (relatively recent) point are one and the same.

I honestly wish the old-stock Australians all the best, but what do your comments have to do with England and its future or the future of Great Britain and Ireland?

The English are our kin, sharing common blood and cultural background... and their future affects us directly. We are not as yet independent of them, and English immigration to this country is still very high.

As for Ireland, my comments probably have no relevance... but then, this was never the topic at hand. You and Milesian have interpreted it to be, fair enough... but then don't criticise me for my interpretations if you wish to be free make your own.

but Australia is not in Europe.

No kidding.

That's fine. I was never planning on sticking around here for long anyway.... but I am entitled to express my opinion, and if you can't see the relation between my opinions and the topic at hand, that's your own problem.

[Susi]

100 years is a long time Do you feel anything towards England or do you feel that you lack a clear cultural identity being in the "new colony" or whatever it is called? In the thread on Skadi you talk about your great-grandparents being from Europe (not exactly your grandparents...). But it's nice that you know who they all are.

Yes, I can see how you would feel this way... but you've got me wrong then. I am interested in the plight of the English redefining themselves and how history has affected their self-identities. I was merely admitting my limitations as an Australian. But as for being interested in the English occupation of Ireland... well, this certainly wasn't the focus of the article either. My point in saying this...

Don't shift the mistakes to other people...

But I could hardly say "things are different for English living in England" as an Australian now can I? So I adjusted my comment... although I feel it was still relevant.

I don't quite understand this, could you please clarify it for the members of the gallery?

The English are our kin, sharing common blood and cultural background... and their future affects us directly. We are not as yet independent of them, and English immigration to this country is still very high.

It doesn't make so much sense... You were granted freedom from them as much as Canada was with the Statute of Westminster (as I recall it being called) in the early 20th century... And I would have thought immigration from countries that are closer to be higher than English immigration. I don't have statistics from Australia readily available, but this is hardly the trend I am seeing...

don't criticise me for my interpretations if you wish to be free make your own.

Criticism is an important part of discussion. Whether one can take it is another thing all together.

That's fine. I was never planning on sticking around here for long anyway.... but I am entitled to express my opinion, and if you can't see the relation between my opinions and the topic at hand, that's your own problem.

The right to express one's opinion also comes with the acknowledgement of the right to other's freedom to express their opinion (perhaps it is that your opinions do not relate to the topic at hand).

If you can't see this, then it is your problem.

You like to shift the blame a lot.

[Errigal]

I hope there are no hard feelings. I really do like many things about the the English-speaking world but it is going through a political and cultural crisis which is about to get much worse. Both Tony Blair and George Bush's governments are going to be tangled up in criminal cases related to Israel and Iraq very soon and Australia's Rupert Murdoch is up to his ears in all of it.

Just some thoughts to take with you. Beware of journalists and politicians who try that Winston Churchill stuff nowadays. They're almost always trying to get some English-speaking person to kill for Israel when they start up with that. And also, the best way to guarantee more Muslim immigrants is to keep bombing their countries.

[Brigid]

I hope there are no hard feelings.

No hard feelings of course. I'm sure you were only saying what many other people here were thinking anyway.

the English-speaking world but it is going through a political and cultural crisis which is about to get much worse. Both Tony Blair and George Bush's governments are going to be tangled up in criminal cases related to Israel and Iraq very soon and Australia's Rupert Murdoch is up to his ears in all of it.

Just some thoughts to take with you. Beware of journalists and politicians who try that Winston Churchill stuff nowadays. They're almost always trying to get some English-speaking person to kill for Israel when they start up with that. And also, the best way to guarantee more Muslim immigrants is to keep bombing their countries.

I know. The future looks bleak. I weep for my children.