Italy convicts Nazis for civilian massacre

[Strengthandhonour]

Italy convicts Nazis for civilian massacre

By Peter Popham in Rome

Published: 15 January 2007




Ten former Nazi SS soldiers have been symbolically sentenced to life imprisonment for carrying out the worst civilian massacre committed in Italy during the Second World War.
The Germans, all now in their late 80s and living in retirement homes in Germany, were found guilty of slaughtering some 770 men, women and children in the hills around Marzabotto, a village in the Appenine hills above Bologna in September and October 1944. Ninety-five of the victims were babies and children under 16.
The villagers were supporters of the Red Star partisans who were harassing the German line. The Nazi high command ordered the villages to be wiped out in reprisal - and to teach a lesson to other potential allies of their enemies
The sentences of the court were greeted by tears and hugs between survivors, their relatives and their lawyers. The justice they have obtained after a trial lasting four years is strictly symbolic: none of the Germans appeared in the court in La Spezia, a city on the Ligurian coast; only one of them appointed a defence lawyer, and he, controversially, was among the seven to be acquitted.
There is not the slightest likelihood any of the culprits will serve time , or that anyone will pay the €100m (£66m) in compensation demanded by the court.
This is fantasy justice, at a distance of 62 years from the events. And for some in Italy, it is not justice at all. Prime Minister Romano Prodi lamented that the sentences were no more than symbolic. "It was one of the most savage crimes of the last war, a real massacre. If the convictions had been possible 40 years earlier, it would have had real value."
Nicola Caracciolo, a historian and director of historical documentaries for Italian television, said: "The Italian penal system has adopted two different weights and measures for dealing with war crimes. There are well-documented Italian atrocities committed in Libya, Abyssinia [Ethiopia] and the former Yugoslavia. Certainly, we committed far fewer than the Germans. But after the war, we chose to look the other way, not to inquire who did what at home."
It is only in the past few years that Italy's courts have been persuaded to sit in judgement on massacres committed by the Germans on Italian soil. Soon after the war, the SS officer who ordered the Marzabotto massacre, Major Walter Reder, was tried and jailed but he was subsequently pardoned and set free after an appeal by the Austrian government.
Detailed reports on the Marzabotto and other massacres compiled by British and American forces were locked away in a cabinet in the military prosecutor's office in Rome and only discovered in 1994 by an inquisitive journalist. When the contents became known, they called it "the cabinet of shame."
The slaughter in the hills was carried out by soldiers of Hitler's crack 16th SS Panzer Grenadier Division. Defending the so-called "Gothic Line" that ran across the peninsula from advancing British and American forces, they were also being harassed by partisan guerrillas. By killing the communities that supported them, in more than a dozen atrocities between July and October the Germans hoped to eliminate one of their problems.
"I would have preferred to see all of them convicted, but at least a little justice has been done," said Ferruccio Laffia, who lost 14 relatives in the slaughter. "It is at least a signal, a trace of culpability recognised."

source: Independent Online Edition > Europe

[Susi]

How ridiculous...

[Strengthandhonour]

Well when you lose 14 members of your family and nothing really serious happens to the person in charge of the murder, it is not so ridiculious. I am sure you would be doing back flips if 14 of your family members or friends got shot and justice didn't come around. Even if it's 10,20,30,40,etc years later. It still counts.

[Agrippa]

The villagers were supporters of the Red Star partisans who were harassing the German line.

The slaughter in the hills was carried out by soldiers of Hitler's crack 16th SS Panzer Grenadier Division. Defending the so-called "Gothic Line" that ran across the peninsula from advancing British and American forces, they were also being harassed by partisan guerrillas. By killing the communities that supported them, in more than a dozen atrocities between July and October the Germans hoped to eliminate one of their problems.

Well, my grandfather died there (and other relatives were in the units) and I still dont know if he was killed by partisans, and honestly, if partisans would have thrown a bomb in a group of comrades, killing and crippling them and going back in a village as if nothing ever happened, playing civilians again, things can get out of control very easily. Even if I dont support such atrocities like they were described. If it happened that way, because there are different views on the incidences. It is clear that they dealt with red terror in this area, and some deviating views describe the incidences in a different way with most deaths being Partisans and related guilty individuals, but still if whole families and innocent individuals died its an atrocity I condemn.

They should have tried to get the responsible and guilty people, not just taking villagers, or if, deporting them as whole to eliminate the support, but not killing without distinction nor committing individual atrocities - even if those happen often in similar cases. But partisan wars and terror is always ugly. Its almost funny how they always speak about the "Nazis" but at the same time what the soldiers there faced was nothing but terror and guerilla warfare, similar to what soldiers experience now in Afghanistan and Iraq. Same causes, similar problems.

If people "play soldier" at night or throw bombs in their "spare time" and go back to "daily life" afterwards, like it happened in certain parts of Europe during WW2, I dont wonder about more or less innocent civilians coming in the line of fire, in fact its quite natural. And from the terror, guerilla, partisan or resistance (how one want to call it) tactics we know of, we know that such atrocities were scheduled by those who plan the terror.

The strategy is as follows: You use terror against the occupying forces, they try to hit back those who did it, but can't reach them since they retreat immediately to hiding places or go back to "daily life" in an anonymous mass. The next cruel attack out of the blue follows, which again kills and cripples soldiers they have to go through the civilian structures to even get informations about the terror groups. This means the host population and occupying forces, even if there were no big troubles before, will be alienated, begin to hate and distrust another, so more troubles for the occupiers, more fighters for the terror group and so it goes on and on...
Same with the French in Algeria with all the problems they had. So such atrocities had to be considered as retaliation acts by those which carried out the terror acts. In fact they wanted it, to spread hate and distrust. And sooner or later, one troop or another, will do it, thats just natural, because without modern military rules, the primary reaction would have been deportation and the eradication of a local population as a source of support for the guerilla groups. Without eliminating the support, a real victory can be hardly achieved without a network of spies in the ranks of the guerilla groups.

I might add that those terror acts didnt just killed Germans, but Italians as well, if they fought or even just supported the Axis. We speak primarily of Communists for that matter.
However, as I said, I still oppose such acts of terror against civilians without distinction, especially if nothing been achieved but more hate and victims. Another point is whether I would convict the soldiers after they saw their murdered and crippled comrades, well, probably the officers, but for sure not the common soldiers if they didnt acted against orders. And for all, man and officers, I would consider extenuating circumstances if they saw comrades dying or being crippled because of terror acts and inhabitants of the village were supporters of the terror groups. But I would condemn it in general and the officers in particular if killing innocent people, especially in the case of related people and if there is no positive effect for the war as a whole possible from such acts.

The Allies themselves as well as partisans were often enough as cruel or even much more cruel than German forces were in similar cases, but still they speak about "Nazi soldiers". Terror acts and partisan war being same this or that way, even if some like to see "heroes" in some and "bad guys" in others. Partisan wars are always ugly, that the result of the methods being used in general. But of course, no "allied" terror group and retaliations being condemned, but soldiers fighting of terror in their back in an extremely critical situation for all of them being convicted in their 80's, even if they just followed an order which was harsh and shouldnt be supported, but was understandable in the given situation.

A deviating view (I dont say its more true, just that there are interesting aspects considered) on the story can be read f.e. here (in German):
Post Scriptum Forum - 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division „Reichsführer SS”

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Agrippa

Well, my grandfather died there (and other relatives were in the units) and I still dont know if he was killed by partisans, and honestly, if partisans would have thrown a bomb in a group of comrades, killing and crippling them and going back in a village as if nothing ever happened, playing civilians again, things can get out of control very easily. Even if I dont support such atrocities like they were described. If it happened that way, because there are different views on the incidences. It is clear that they dealt with red terror in this area, and some deviating views describe the incidences in a different way with most deaths being Partisans and related guilty individuals, but still if whole families and innocent individuals died its an atrocity I condemn.

They should have tried to get the responsible and guilty people, not just taking villagers, or if, deporting them as whole to eliminate the support, but not killing without distinction nor committing individual atrocities - even if those happen often in similar cases. But partisan wars and terror is always ugly. Its almost funny how they always speak about the "Nazis" but at the same time what the soldiers there faced was nothing but terror and guerilla warfare, similar to what soldiers experience now in Afghanistan and Iraq. Same causes, similar problems.

If people "play soldier" at night or throw bombs in their "spare time" and go back to "daily life" afterwards, like it happened in certain parts of Europe during WW2, I dont wonder about more or less innocent civilians coming in the line of fire, in fact its quite natural. And from the terror, guerilla, partisan or resistance (how one want to call it) tactics we know of, we know that such atrocities were scheduled by those who plan the terror.

The strategy is as follows: You use terror against the occupying forces, they try to hit back those who did it, but can\\\'t reach them since they retreat immediately to hiding places or go back to "daily life" in an anonymous mass. The next cruel attack out of the blue follows, which again kills and cripples soldiers they have to go through the civilian structures to even get informations about the terror groups. This means the host population and occupying forces, even if there were no big troubles before, will be alienated, begin to hate and distrust another, so more troubles for the occupiers, more fighters for the terror group and so it goes on and on...
Same with the French in Algeria with all the problems they had. So such atrocities had to be considered as retaliation acts by those which carried out the terror acts. In fact they wanted it, to spread hate and distrust. And sooner or later, one troop or another, will do it, thats just natural, because without modern military rules, the primary reaction would have been deportation and the eradication of a local population as a source of support for the guerilla groups. Without eliminating the support, a real victory can be hardly achieved without a network of spies in the ranks of the guerilla groups.

I might add that those terror acts didnt just killed Germans, but Italians as well, if they fought or even just supported the Axis. We speak primarily of Communists for that matter.
However, as I said, I still oppose such acts of terror against civilians without distinction, especially if nothing been achieved but more hate and victims. Another point is whether I would convict the soldiers after they saw their murdered and crippled comrades, well, probably the officers, but for sure not the common soldiers if they didnt acted against orders. And for all, man and officers, I would consider extenuating circumstances if they saw comrades dying or being crippled because of terror acts and inhabitants of the village were supporters of the terror groups. But I would condemn it in general and the officers in particular if killing innocent people, especially in the case of related people and if there is no positive effect for the war as a whole possible from such acts.

The Allies themselves as well as partisans were often enough as cruel or even much more cruel than German forces were in similar cases, but still they speak about "Nazi soldiers". Terror acts and partisan war being same this or that way, even if some like to see "heroes" in some and "bad guys" in others. Partisan wars are always ugly, that the result of the methods being used in general. But of course, no "allied" terror group and retaliations being condemned, but soldiers fighting of terror in their back in an extremely critical situation for all of them being convicted in their 80\\\'s, even if they just followed an order which was harsh and shouldnt be supported, but was understandable in the given situation.

A deviating view (I dont say its more true, just that there are interesting aspects considered) on the story can be read f.e. here (in German):
Post Scriptum Forum - 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division „Reichsführer SS”

Well, italian troops in Jugoslavia in some casese are rumored to have done the same, as reprisal of tortures inflicted by communst partisans to italian prisoners (eyes gouged while alive, then interred with testicles inserted in eyes\' cavities). It seems italian partisans behaved better, generally speaking, with german prisoners: only after the surrender communist partisans started mass killing of former fascists and members of the burgeois classes. In the very same areas as Marzabotto, after german surrender the commies killed hundreds of innocents italian civilians, still today their bodies are buried in unknown locations: none is allowed to investigate, local people often intimidate the few who dare. This aemilian area is still called the Death triangle out of this. Also, communist partisans are said to have played a provocative role in the other famous nazi slaghter of Sant\\\'Anna di Stazzema: when the Germans warned they would exterminate anybody remaining in the area, controlled by partisans, such partisans forced the civilians into stayng, promsing an assistance that never came. Actually the communist party has been supspected to have carried out a terror campaign against the egrmans with the purpose of geenrating reprisals that would undermne the credibility of the fascist state existing in Northern Italy. This because they knew well that many actions they would take against german troops were meaningless from a military point of view. First of them, the 1944 Rome bomb attack against a german police battallion, that killed mostly catholic austrian soldiers, so causing a reprisal that wasn\'t directed on the roman population just because of the intervention of fascist authorities and pro-italian german dipolomats. All such soldiers, when offered the possibility to become part of the firing platoons that were to execute communist and hebrew hostages that had at last been chosen, politely refused because of their catholic upbringing. Interestingly enough, the communst prisoners that were executed belonged to a splinter faction of the communist party that was out of the party line, and which was opposed to the ones who carried out the bombings, who were in turn strictly obedient to the party.

[Caesar Princeps]

Actually we did have concentration camps in Lybia (200.000 reported deads), and we did use hyprite during the Abyssinian war (1935-1936), but that was no different from what other Colonial powers (first of all British and French) used to do.
In Yugoslavia, concentration camps were established on Dalmatian islands, but Italian reprisals were aimed more against partisans than civilians (even if it is often difficult to sort among them). Death penalty for franc tireurs was well part of the War Right; it is not a nice thing, but it is often necessary.

Anyway, even if it is comprehensible that soldiers could be enraged for their comrades' death, that is not an excuse for slaughtering civilian, especially those who are too old or too young to possibly be resisters. I blame Nazi massacres as well as Partisan murders and Titoist genocide.

Recently, Giampaolo Pansa, a leftwing Italian journalist, who was from my city, wrote several books: Il sangue dei vinti, and Sconosciuto 1945, about the crimes committed by partisans during and after the civil war. He was spammed and insulted by the radical Left-Wing (Communists and so on). The interesting thing is that these topics were already be studied 40 yrs ago by Neofascist historians, but they were ignored by academic history.

[Strengthandhonour]

Many do not know, but one of the most famous concentration camps of Italy was hidden in the hills of Calabria I believe. The funny thing is, that only one single death was recorded in this concentration camp, and it was during a bombing that one of the sections colapsed and killed one prisoner.
Most of the prisoners at this camp were Yugoslavians,Albanians and Greeks and a very minimal amount of jews. I read a book regarding the topic some time ago.

[Caesar Princeps]

Personally, I did not know about prisony camp on Italian soil.

In fact, the only Jews in these camps may have been Greek or Yugoslavian Jews collected along with Slavs and Greeks, as Italian ones were discriminated by Racial Laws but otherwise undisturbed until the outburst of Civil War (8/9/1943). The same politic was applicated in occupied territories.

[I also have read as curiosity (Wikipedia font, take it with care ), that only 67 Jews were killed in Albania during the War, because they could hide among the circoncided Muslim population.]

[M.R.]

Why are Italians never convicted?

-

Italians in Slovenia, WW2

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/1.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/4.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/5.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/6.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/7.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/9.jpg

http://www.hervardi.com/images/fasisti/11.jpg

Link

[Caesar Princeps]

Italian war criminal were not prosecuted because of the notorious "Amnistia Togliatti", from the chief of Partito Comunista Italiano, who accepted not to process Fascists in order to protect Communist and Partisan war criminal.

I wonder if the site you linked to could be translated into English, anyway it seems very similar to a recent Italian book "Si ammazza troppo poco" (There is too little killing) edited in 2005 and written by Gianni Oliva, high school headmaster and communist advisor of Regione Piemonte. It goes without saying that actually partisans and armed civilians are allowed to be shot, in Alsace (1870) as in Iraq nowadays, in fact more often are the winner to judge if they were freedom fighters or rebel terrorists.

You'd certainly know that, in opposition to 27th January, the Memorial Holocaust Day, in Italy was introduced the 10th February as Memorial Day of the ethnic cleansing in Venezia Giulia and Istria. Last year, I attended at school two conferences on this topic. The first one was held by a communist history teacher who spoke nearly only about forced Italianization and Italian crimes, reading several letters and other documents. The second was far worser, since the speaker was an Italian who remained in Dalmatia after the war. Well, he was more partial than Slavs themselves, and what's worst he was ignorant (he stated that Italians were the only non German people to enter SS , I swear he stated so!!! ). Apart from the alarming communist hegemony in the education sector in Italy, it appears that we are well aware of our guilts.

[Kernunnos]

Originally Posted by Panonski

Why are Italians never convicted?

-

Italians in Slovenia, WW2















Link

Because the other side of the story is very embarassing too.

This are pictures of italian soldiers after their return from jugoslavian prison camps (Borovica)

CAMPI DI STERMINIO

here we have names and stories

Foibe: Tito Josip.

This is an almost balanced resume of the foibe massacres

Foibe massacres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This are ther results of an official joint italo-slovenian historical commission, who set a basis for a possible future honest view to see historical facts from that years (in english, slovenian and italian)

Slovene-Italian Relations 1880-1956 (ENG)

Relazioni italo-slovene 1880-1956 (ITA)

Slovensko-italijanski odnosi 1880-1956 (SLO)

I have known many itaian exiles, the ferocity with wich they were expelled was great.

My father's cousins are missing since then (what might missing mean?).

You might blame Tito and communism for mass expulsion of venetian-italians from Istria (350.000 people), I couldn't agree less, but a certain subtone of territorial expansion cannot be ignored.

The attack on Slovenia by Italy was absurd, no doubt about that, since the only venetian (i.e. belonging to the culture and ethnicities of the former Republic of Venice) towns were located on the istrian coast.

No doubt that Mussolini tried to suffocate a culture without motivation.

But it is also true that the austrian empire had almost done the same tryng to weaken the former italo-venetian population and favouring the "slavs" (I know that you are right about the incorrect use of this word).


It is not to be forgotten that Mussolini was also rather dour on tirolese inhabitants of South Tirol (konown in italy as Alto Adige), who were forced to mass emigrate in Germany with Hitler's consent.

The revenge taken against the italo-venetians at the end to ww2 was pretty close to ethnic cleansing, even if it must be recognized that it was mostly a stalinist policy aimed at ousting an ethnic group that could be unsafe for the future communist regime.

[M.R.]

Originally Posted by Breha

Because the other side of the story is very embarassing too.

No it's not. It's not embarassing to fight for your country when it's occupied. If you want to steal land from other nation, be sure to now how to fight, otherwise you will get your asses kicked.

Honestly, what would you do if Slovenians occupied your country and were trying to erase you from the map?

I'll look those links later. Regards

[Arthur Gordon Pym]

Originally Posted by Caesar Princeps

Actually we did have concentration camps in Lybia (200.000 reported deads), and we did use hyprite during the Abyssinian war (1935-1936), but that was no different from what other Colonial powers (first of all British and French) used to do.
In Yugoslavia, concentration camps were established on Dalmatian islands, but Italian reprisals were aimed more against partisans than civilians (even if it is often difficult to sort among them). Death penalty for franc tireurs was well part of the War Right; it is not a nice thing, but it is often necessary.

Anyway, even if it is comprehensible that soldiers could be enraged for their comrades' death, that is not an excuse for slaughtering civilian, especially those who are too old or too young to possibly be resisters. I blame Nazi massacres as well as Partisan murders and Titoist genocide.

If I understood you correctly: you justify Italian atrocities in Dalmatia, Lybia and Ethiopia, but you at the same time co